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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:55 pm
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Matt,

You might want to add that Mustang is one of the biggest selling amps of all time, and many have included this lineup or replaced their tubes with this amp. I guess toys are in.

There is a difference between the models in that they have different speakers and so on. I have a twin speaker model IV V1 with no fizz, and all of the pedals. Some like MusicLaw prefer the equally fine model III. The V with head amp (similar to the IV) was a handful to move for me, and others like my friend has a model I that I have tried. Model I is definitely entry level with a value of its own. I agree with MusicLaw that there is more to like than not. Versions I and II have some different features, but again they are not for everyone. Whether it's a new Bluetooth feature in a new amp or REMUDA or Fuse it is good to know that these amps can be standalone capable with a choice of amps/cabs and what not. There are definite shortcomings to be sure, and they sound different, but the same holds true amongst most amps. IMHO.

Repair is not much of a consideration, but the expense somewhat makes up for it and I am just starting on the 5th year of warranty. Uh oh! :shock: As far as not being built like a tank . . . It doesn't drive like one either. The ride is pretty sweet.

I know that a blind test of listening to amp simulation can be extremely rewarding. You might want to check that out on You Tube or personally, and know that there are many seasoned players that agree the sounds are available, only the amps need to be tweaked outside of store surroundings as you know from your Line 6 experience.

I know what a '62 Strat sounds like through a Bandmaster and Twin. No contest . . . but, then again, even after Mustang pedal costs, the value and result is no toy any more than to believe that an inexpensive decent guitar in the right hands can't make beautiful music.

I know that isn't written in stone, but thousands of players from all levels have not and have found satisfaction with the Mustangs as they did with their earlier amps before digital.

Would I like to still have a Twin or another? Yep! I have the room and it's on my list if I finish the other entries. But, I believe Mustang holds its own. Besides, those in the know are aware that what you see on stage isn't always what's playing back. There's also a lot of digital under the foot and backstage. Analog isn't going anywhere, and digital is going everywhere. :wink:





Other videos comparing other amps are not so convincing, but the amps are not identical and neither one can reproduce the other identically.

YMMV

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:30 pm
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I realise it's a great selling amp.
That is primarily due to the price point and bang-for-buck ratio.
Entry level gear will always sell better than pro-grade gear.
It's just a fact of life.

I've heard some of the reviews and seen how 'on YouTube' the map simulations can be quite compelling.
As I said, I will at some point look at them again but somehow I doubt the dynamics of the simulations will accurately capture the real thing when the comparo is happening right in front of you, in person, with your own hands and your own guitar.
I will admit that many of those finer points of amp tone can often be lost on an audience, particularly once f/x are introduced but in my experience when it is just an amp and a guitar and the tone is clean to ever so slight breakup, the guitarist can and will notice a difference.

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:58 pm
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As I said earlier, Matt, I truly am divided and somewhat neutral. You made the right connection with your comments. The audience, especially in this day and age, have, in general, a different concept on what is audibly acceptable. Exceptions are always in that rule, however, as we both know. Some will know what they like while others only know what they do not like, and others don't fit either category.

You and I, and many here, are well aware that familiarity with live music sounds is an education that develops over time, so much so that it can become both a beneficial skill and a disability at times. I know what a cymbal sounds like close up, and what it doesn't sound like when digitized or compromised. The mind is a strange and amazing tool.

I remember my buddy's '62 Strat sound from the simple tunes I played over and over during high school as we doubled up in the band. Do I remember everything that I ever heard on that or any other Strat? Nope. But, with the right gear and the same song(s) with my playing of the same my memory will still be close. It helps me to play the same song while evaluating new gear. Change the song and the player and it's different. Marketers love to have you think this or that wil make you a Stevie Ray, Eric, Keith, Hank, or whoever. Change one component - again different. Add years of technological and design differences even with copies - different again. On stage hotrodding and even similar guitars and amps will have differences. Another Bandmaster and '62 Strat would not sound like the one I had. Close but not exact. Newer versions . . . well, you get the idea.

The best we can do is get close. That's pretty good though.

I guess that's the beauty of digital (especially high end as it progresses), Matt. It may be the only way to reach the closest representation, and that's considerations in studios today, especially in the remixing fields. As original cherished musical instruments loose their ability to be a viable standard on which to emulate in order to make a reproduction, measurable and tweakable sampling has and will come to the rescue. It could be that one's analog instrument will have used digital reference of a sound lost or unavailable.

You can give me an old jukebox any day. Nostalgia has its own vibe, bro'. :D
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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:40 pm
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FSB, my go Mustang is and has always been the MIV v.2! The MIII was a trial period amp that I opted not to return when the MIV I ordered eventually arrived. That was 2 years ago. Even today, both sound great even when used with the Helix!

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:04 pm
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Upon doing a little Google searching, I think I was in error about the model number.
I think it's more likely my friend's amp was a Mustang 2 or II.
I'm pretty sure it was not a 100 watt amp.
I'm guessing more like 40 or 50 watts.

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:59 pm
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Hi pacemaker1000, welcome to the forum.
pacemaker1000 wrote:
Sorry but a lot of you sound like guitar snobs!
Well in this case 'amp snobs' would be a better way of putting it.
pacemaker1000 wrote:
What's wrong with technology that excites new players? These amps won't be aimed at purist gig players but noobies playing in their bedrooms or noodling.
Absolutely nothing is wrong with that, and it's obvious you understand its intended use, as opposed to something worthy of a gigging road warrior.
pacemaker1000 wrote:
I love just sitting in my chair and playing some of my favourite music and trying to emulate the players when I'm not practicing properly.
In that case, it sounds like a bluetooth amp would be perfect for you, so find one and play your heart out on it. And remember, Google is your friend.
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/22/fender/

Don't mind some of the crustier members of this forum. If you don't have a $10,000 amp made before 1958, then to them it's a 'toy' and a 'gimmick' and a 'piece of junk', because everyone MUST have a rig worthy of professional gigging musicians , and nothing is ever as good as it used to be (including nostalgia). :lol: Have fun!

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:03 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Upon doing a little Google searching, I think I was in error about the model number.
I think it's more likely my friend's amp was a Mustang 2 or II.
I'm pretty sure it was not a 100 watt amp.
I'm guessing more like 40 or 50 watts.
This makes more sense. I do not know if the Mustang II came with a foot swith.

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:34 pm
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MusicLaw wrote:
FSB, my go Mustang is and has always been the MIV v.2! The MIII was a trial period amp that I opted not to return when the MIV I ordered eventually arrived. That was 2 years ago. Even today, both sound great even when used with the Helix!
Nice setup with the Helix, MusicLaw.

I really enjoy the IV too. The reason I held off of the V2 is that the stereo looper position is 'post amp' on V1, and V2 was, until a later firmware update from 2.0 to 2.1 'pre amp'. I didn't really need the extra amps and such as I am using software and hardware to take care of those needs. I prefer the rarer carbon look and graphics, but that is really a moot point.

So far no fizz, and rumour has it some have found and fixed loose solder joints, board flex, or similar to have been the problem; however, I can't verify that since it hasn't occurred in my corner.

I bought Version 1 just months before Version 2 came out, and I was waiting for a third version, slightly higher end, or a hybrid with tubes. Neither happened. Just as well, the Mustang IV does me fine until the next amp trumps it. Either Version I or Version II would be a great addition. As for the fizz worries, for anyone on the fence about purchasing - look for a Vll or a used VI that has stood the test of time or grab one at a discount, your odds are just as good as not. IMHO.

FSB

Pacemaker1000 - good to have you here. Let us know how you make out with your amp choice, I'm sure it will be a good fit.

Nice post by the way, spacewolf.

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:29 am
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I prefer to have an amplifier where the money has been spent making a great sounding amplifier, not making something where gimmickry is its USP.

So simple is best for me.

It doesn't have to be vintage either - with Fender the Bassbreaker amps are great sounding, simple amplifiers too, as is the Blues Deluxe (I'm going to stop here with listing Fender amps - insert your favourite here).
I have a weakness for the '68 Custom Deluxe Reverb, although that's quite a bit more costly than most of the amplifiers I mention here.
The Blackstar Artist 30 is a great sounding amplifier by anybody's standards.
My son's Vox AC15 sounds killer when cranked.

The common theme with all of the amps I mention is simplicity, reliability, and great sound first and foremost.
No gimmicks.

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:15 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
For me, the controversy centres around the fact one needs a foot-switchable controller.
Using a phone or tablet is not viable.
There would never be any need for a floor controller to utilize BlueTooth.
Another set of batteries to change.
A wireless connection to fail and require re-establishing.
In the middle of a performance?
It wouldn't be any more feasible than taking your hands away from playing to touch your device.
It's just plain dumb.

Do you mean using it change from one preset to the next? Again, that's not what Bluetooth is used for in this application. It's used to make tweaks to your presets. Add a little more reverb. Dial back the distortion. Those kind of edits. Do you make these changes during live performance with a footswitch?

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:56 am
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Nice post by the way, spacewolf.
Thanks, FSB, good to see you again.

stratmangler wrote:
I prefer to have an amplifier where the money has been spent making a great sounding amplifier, not making something where gimmickry is its USP.

So simple is best for me.

It doesn't have to be vintage either - with Fender the Bassbreaker amps are great sounding, simple amplifiers too, as is the Blues Deluxe (I'm going to stop here with listing Fender amps - insert your favourite here).
I have a weakness for the '68 Custom Deluxe Reverb, although that's quite a bit more costly than most of the amplifiers I mention here.
The Blackstar Artist 30 is a great sounding amplifier by anybody's standards.
My son's Vox AC15 sounds killer when cranked.

The common theme with all of the amps I mention is simplicity, reliability, and great sound first and foremost.
No gimmicks.
Those are all great amps and the advice you gave earlier on playing with a metronome and other musicians is unimpeachable. But referring to technological advances with a derogatory term like 'gimmicks' is controversial. We live in a technology-driven world, so technological changes are here to stay, including technological advances to guitar amps. If other players find them useful, then they are certainly not gimmicks, at least not to them.

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:16 am
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strings10927 wrote:
... that's not what Bluetooth is used for in this application. It's used to make tweaks to your presets. Add a little more reverb. Dial back the distortion. Those kind of edits. Do you make these changes during live performance with a footswitch?
Right you are. I do not tweak my effects while performing. Nobody else does either from what I have seen. I have seen people stop playing mid song to tweak something while other band members keep playing and watch with with furrowed brow as if to say, "WTF are you doing?"

Does that mean we are in agreement? That the BlueTooth features of this device are not for stage performance? That this feature will only be used during private practice?

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:37 am
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The latest Bluetooth standard is not inherently deficient, and certainly could be used to pair (connect) an Expression and Volume Pedal device and/or a footswith unit to an amp.

Nonetheless, my expectation is that whatever Fender may be introducing will not use Bluetooth for the above! Rather, it is far more likely that Bluetooth will be implemented for an Android and iOS Mobile App to control, edit, and adjust the various amp features, and probably with a user interface that may not be particluarly convenient while playing.

We should see what Fender has in store next week at NAMM.

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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:23 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Right you are. I do not tweak my effects while performing. Nobody else does either from what I have seen.

EVH and some other Phase 90 users, with the big rubber ring that makes it easy to nudge it with your toe. And delay pedals where you can tap the tempo. But that's about it.

But then again, the typical digital amp system where you switch presets isn't without problems either. You generally have to remember which preset does what. And depending on the footswitch, either cycle through several of them to get to the one you want, or have a huge row of buttons that look the same, even if they can hold labels that are too small to read while standing in the dark. Messing around gets WTF looks, no matter what the reason is.
It can be easier to just tap on or off a unique looking[*] pedal with a footswitch.

[*]: This is a reason why so many of us like unique pedals - it's not just a fetish for the weird. I won't ever mistake the round fuzz face for the bright orange phase pedal or scary looking drive. Even if I reorganize my pedalboard, I don't have to relearn the position.


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Post subject: Re: New Bluetooth Amps!
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:25 pm
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I didn't find that to be a problem for me, remembering what the buttons did on my Line-6 floorboard.
I organised them such that cleaner tones were in the lower banks and the less processed tones were in the left-most buttons with the right-most button always being a boost/solo preset. I used 7 of the 32 available user-banks and each bank had four buttons labeled ABCD. So I had 28 presets with bank 7 bordering on metal tones and bank 1 being clean chime. Banks 2 through 6 were increasingly gainy. 2 & 3 were similar in terms of gain but 2 was a Fendery light overdrive and 3 was a Marshally light overdrive. 4 & 5 were similar in terms of drive but 4 was a Fendery medium breakup and 5 was a Marshally medium breakup. 6 was Marshally and high gain. 7 was a 'rectifier' high gain bank. 'A' was always the dry amp-tone. 'B' & 'C' added some f/x so I always had two options besides dry and 'D' was always a lead boost. I would decide which bank I was going to use based on the song being played. There was also a 'jump' feature. You could set it to a tone in one bank, before the song began, then switch banks and select a tone. Then you could toggle back and forth between the two. It was a system that worked well for me.

In many ways that AX2-212 was the perfect cover band amp. I never had a moment of grief with it except one gig where I was out in the woods at a log cabin "roughing it" type of resort and the power supply was a generator. If I had known before I left I would have taken a power conditioner with me. The amp would go silent for a second if there was a sudden dip in voltage due to someone turning something on. The other guys, using tube amps, experienced no such dropouts. That was just a one-time thing though and had no affect on my estimation of its value to me since it wasn't likely I would ever have that experience again.

I just got frustrated with it due to the tones getting quite close to what I wanted but never perfect. The tone itself was always really good but the models lacked the dynamics of a real amp. That's why I can't trust a YouTube video of a comparison of a real amp versus a modeller. It may sound exactly the same but I know with 100% certainty that I would personally be able to tell the difference because I use variation in my hands as a form of expression while playing. That's where these modellers come up short. Not everybody notices it but I do because I came up through the ranks playing real amps with very few f/x. Today, so many players use clean amps and pedals that the pedals become the source of their tone and the amp is less important. In retrospect I prolly should not have sold it. It had its place and it had very little resale value. For what I got for it I should have kept it. I just needed the room in my studio so it had to go.

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