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Post subject: Mixing board question
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:34 pm
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So I realize that this is not exactly the right forum for this question, and I will also copy/paste it in the Expo forum but since this is the area that seems to get the most traffic I'll post it here too.

About 1 1/2 years ago we bought Fender Expo's for our 4 member classic rock band. 3 systems that we used with a Mackie 12 channel board. And just for info's sake we have 3 towers.

When we first got the Expo's we set up in such a way that the 3 Expo's were behind us, serving as both monitors and mains. It worked well and eliminated a lot of extra crap at setup. We also added a Behringer 500 watt subwoofer that we used to really add some "thump" to the kick drum and overall sound.

For some time this system worked very well, we would daisy chain the Expo's in mono and run them wide open with NO issues regarding feedback. It was a great setup. My position in the band is bass/vocals while running sound on the fly. My only gripe with this setup was the Mackie board had small controls and so many options that making any adjustments on the fly was difficult. At least I thought it was not easy. But eventually our Mackie board died and repairs were cost prohibitive.

I replaced the board with a Peavey PVI 8500 mixer. For me it was more of a "basic" setup with fewer controls, making my job of adjusting on the fly FAR easier. But what also happened at this time was that we could no longer run the Expo's behind us at full volume without having tons of feedback issues. We've adusted our setup by moving two of the Expo's toward front of house and leaving one in the back near the drummer that is run at a much lower volume for a monitor fill. The main issue with this setup is the one Expo for a monitor is turned so low that it is not always helpful over the volume of the acoustic drums.

So my question is, for those of you more knowledgeable than I am, does that make sense? That the Mackie board was so much better that feedback was not an issue where it is with the Peavey. Please keep in mind that I am not a trained sound man, I inherited the job by default. And any comments about "peavey is junk" are not helpful either. I really liked the setup of the Expo's in back serving as both mains/monitors but am hesitant to dump the amount of money necessary into buying another Mackie board.

If you have any useful info to add I'd appreciate it, thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:11 am
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Hey, Chris:

Not sure if I can be of help, and it sounds like you have some knowledge likely on the area I will mention. There are others here that may have a better handle on it than I, but I'll start to get the ball rolling. Please, forgive any duplication you already know.

First off feedback can be evasive at times as there are so many variables.

1) Starting with mikes, the patterns can require different placement of speakers/monitors and some mikes have recommended angles to each other for setup. If mikes, speakers, and such are the same as before . . . this is less likely the problem, but rooms and other audio changes may be considered should angle optimization be in play. Of course a variety of mike types and location will make a difference, and ocassionally more difficult to handle, but that can be figured out through elimination. (Height of the monitors may be an overlooked benefit to change feedback and EQ response based on room reflection)

2) You are right to say volume has a feedback effect. The feedback could come from direct sound volume or, at times, reflected.

3) If I am correct, the two mixers in question utilize different EQ arrangements. EQ is a major player in feedback.

You may find one mixer is kinder in it's tweaking. Generally you'll get the gear working with no EQ (Flat), then make changes as needed for best placement and/or choice of compatible gear (like mikes, etc.). Volume and EQ work hand in hand somewhat in this case. You may find you have to sacrifice one or the other with some compromise. Think of it this way. The room may be boomy or bright and volume and EQ together can improve this, but there are limits.

Some mixers have simple boosts and/or cuts (filters) along with the channel EQ, some have feedback features, and some have an added multiband analog EQ that is used as a master for monitor output (often 5 or 7 band).

The differences in your two mixers would be the first consideration I would look for in this problem solving, all things being equal. So start off by eliminating the differences on setup. Once again:

Start with playback and no EQs, add volume until or if it feeds back. (You might want to test each input/output with a simple level adjustment on each and all sources with the monitors) When feedback is eliminated with a simple setup on all sources, add or delete the EQ and cut off/boost on each buss as desired . . . one at a time until or if it feeds back. This is the time you may need to lower the volume on the monitors and not so much on the faders/pots (although, you may have to compensate a little with fader/pot adjustment). If you compensate with both channel/output and monitor volumes you may find that your channel EQ will help with minuscule compensation too. You'll likely want to set your mixer's monitor volume output as high as possible backing off only when feedback occurs. Your Master output can control the final output unless, of course, you have recording requirements that require otherwise.

Continue this process until all channels are set with the peaks at optimum required (as it will be in performance), no graphic/monitor EQ, and have balanced sub outs (if available), and optimize your master fader output.

Once this is done and all other needs such as effects have been done to satisfaction you can likely adjust the graphic monitor out EQ, or if you are content to have a good source you may, I suppose, EQ the monitors first. before channel adjustments, but, this wil make it more difficult to troubleshoot as every location and setup is different, etc. and unless you have a reference from prior times (notebook or computer/cellphone is handy) time consuming feedback concerns may need to be addressed from start again.

As I said earlier, hands on and equipment varies. YMMV

No guarantees any of this will solve the problem of feedback, Chris; but, it may, hopefully, help. I haven't used your mixer, but, maybe someone here has. Still the basic rules are similar.

Best of luck.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:48 am
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It looks like the Peavey PVI 8500 is powered.

You aren't running a powered mixer into powered speakers are you?

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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:43 am
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“Speaker Out” jacks on your mixer suggest you are trying to connect outputs from a powered mixer or power amp to your unpowered (or passive) speakers. Speaker Out signals carry more than just the audio; they also carry significant electrical energy (power, which drives the speakers) that the line level audio inputs on powered speakers can’t handle. DO NOT connect these to powered speakers! Serious and costly damage will be done to your amplifiers, crossovers and/or speakers.
Here read this article
http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/powered-speakers-connect-them-powered-mixer/
mud


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:06 pm
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Thanks for the feedback guys.

FSB, the wierd thing is that the mics are the same, placement as far as our setup is the same. The members of the band have been solid over 10 years. The only change was the mixer. Thanks for the advice though, steps to "properly" set up the mix are always appreciated.

And to the question of the powered mixer and powered speakers. I am aware that this can be a bad combination. However, the Peavey is set up to run as a passive or powered mixer. In the case of my two gigging bands we used the Expo's so I use the non-powered outs to connect to the Expo's and our powered monitor. But I have other situations where I get together with some other friends and in that situation they had some passive monitors/speakers so in that case I use the powered outs. So I am taking advantage of the double duty capability of the mixer. Different situations, different uses.


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:03 pm
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mud wrote:
“Speaker Out” jacks on your mixer suggest you are trying to connect outputs from a powered mixer or power amp to your unpowered (or passive) speakers. Speaker Out signals carry more than just the audio; they also carry significant electrical energy (power, which drives the speakers) that the line level audio inputs on powered speakers can’t handle. DO NOT connect these to powered speakers! Serious and costly damage will be done to your amplifiers, crossovers and/or speakers.

There are deamps/attenuators/hotplates that can be connected, and which have line out signals. But I would not recommend it, because any step like that will lose signal and add noise - no matter how good the equipment is.
Get a splitter. They're cheap.


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:19 pm
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Hey, Chris I feel your pain. When we couldn't find the problem in the control rooms we called them gremlins and a whole lot more. Sometimes, it's like showing your friends how your dog was supposed to do a trick only to have the dog not cooperate. Then when you least expect it the situation re-emerges. :?
At any rate, let us know how you make out with the feedback when you get a solution.

Cheers!
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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:44 am
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I hesitate to put this out there because I'm almost certain someone will take me to task on it but I do believe some mix-boards are more forgiving with feedback issues than others and that it is certainly plausible and even reasonable that the new board is in fact the culprit.

I have owned a number of Peavey products over the years and still own some today. I don't think of them as poorly as I do, say, Behringer products but I have found them to be hit and miss. Some Peavey stuff is downright great. Other items, not so much. Additionally, I have never met a powered board yet that did not present me with "issues" in some form or another. Not a fan of powered boards.

Peavey used to make a unit called the Feedback Ferret. I have one of the early models. It is a 2u rack-mount device that handles a stereo signal. It's not part of my regular setup but I take it with me just in case I run into a room full of gremlins. There have been a number of versions of this product and they all have gotten mixed reviews and I think I know why. It's because it works but not without hassles. The unit monitors signal levels and looks for indications of feedback. When feedback is detected a very narrow band notch filter is applied at the frequency feeding back. The filter is slowly released after a second or two. To be perfectly honest, I don't know enough about how it works to comment further on its internal operation. What I can tell you is that for the most part it is semi-transparent. Most of the time it is completely transparent. In a bad room or with a bad stage setup you can tell it is there. You will think just for a quarter of a second it may not be working because you'll detect just the slightest hint of feedback creeping in and then its suddenly gone. In a bad situation this will occur repeatedly. The downside is that it removes your ability to set your EQs the way you like them. You'll think you're getting close to dialling it in but you never quite get there. I do not recommend this piece of gear as a permanent solution for you. If you decide to try one you should view it as a backup system that forces compromised sound on you but will get you limping through a gig.

I suspect your real solution is to get another board. Mackie makes some quality gear but I still don't care for their mix-boards because all the controls are too small, particularly the 50mm sliders. I absolutely love my Allen & Heath board. It is ultra clean, (very low distortion) which some people do not like but it is excellent quality gear that is very user friendly and I don't have "issues" with it. It has been rock solid and reliable for almost 20 years and showing no signs of giving up the ghost. In recent years their prices have come down, likely due to off-shore assembly but I don't know that for sure.

The logical mind says, if the only thing that has changed is the board then the board is the source. With enough time and tweaking you may get it sussed out but I think you should prepare for the possibility you may not.

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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:16 am
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Thanks again for more "feedback" on this.

My own thinking was along the lines of "BMW-KTM" in that the only thing that changed was the board and the issue started so that seems to be the culprit. Now the question is who gonna's pay for a new board? LOL


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:21 pm
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Matt has made a very good point about the mixer and choice IMHO. Is it the only answer? Maybe, maybe not, but it is one way. Negative Feedback is indeed complicated and can be found within speakers as well as amplification. Too much to explain or consider in this post. BMW-KTM pretty much nailed it.

I have laid my paws on a great many large analog mixers (including a top ten recording unit) over the years, sometimes remotely, but mostly in controlled environments. My experience with a digital mixer followed my old school experience.

I can say that the mixers definitely had a personality of their own, and hence the consideration as previously mentioned.

You could do well with Allen & Heath. For the moment I am using Soundcraft in a close proximity miking/monitor situation with no feedback problems. It all comes down to the features and price with these two solid mixers and lately the advances made and pricing have been better. So whether you choose these or other brands I think you'll find great deals in used as well as new. Happy hunting.

FSB

Just some fodder to peruse:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... fback.html

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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:13 pm
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I bit the bullet and traded in the Peavey pvi8500 for a brand new Mackie 12 channel board.

Now to find some time for a full on practice before our next gig.

I'm really hoping to get back to the days of Expo's behind us again.


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 5:15 pm
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WI KISSfan wrote:
I bit the bullet and traded in the Peavey pvi8500 for a brand new Mackie 12 channel board.

Did it solve the problems?


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:38 am
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arth1 wrote:
WI KISSfan wrote:
I bit the bullet and traded in the Peavey pvi8500 for a brand new Mackie 12 channel board.

Did it solve the problems?



Don't know yet, have to get the full band into a big space and set it all up to find out.


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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:10 pm
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WI KISSfan wrote:
I bit the bullet and traded in the Peavey pvi8500 for a brand new Mackie 12 channel board.

Now to find some time for a full on practice before our next gig.

I'm really hoping to get back to the days of Expo's behind us again.
Nice, Chris. Mackies seem pretty popular in this neck of the woods so good start on the problem. Let us know how ya make out :D
FSB

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Post subject: Re: Mixing board question
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:36 am
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Personally I'm a strong believer in placement being everything. Putting speakers behind mic's is a huge no no to me. You've got speakers acting directly on the mic's.
Saying that, I don't have much experience with PA systems. I'm currently looking to sell mine.

Personally I'd floor what I use for monitors and what you use for audience, get it out front. There's a reason so many people do that, it works.


As for Peavey quality, I wouldn't read too much into what you see on the internet.
All them old amps from the 80's are still running. Last night I plugged into a Peavey Valveking 4x12. I've recently turned my Mesa combo into a head. I never liked the speaker in the combo.
So anyway I plugged into this Peavey speaker, a budget model non the less.
It sounded godlike. The sound really came together. It sounded better than my 36 year old Marshall 4x12. Or my marshall 2x12 that has 1973 Greybacks in.
One thing I really am funny about is speaker cabs sounding right

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