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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:37 pm
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01GT eibach wrote:
Look, I am not a anti-gun nut, but here is where I think things have gone awry...
1) I do not think it was a good idea to make the AR-15 legal (a semiautomatic version of the M-16 war machine);
2) I don't see the purpose of large-capacity magazines;
3) "Smart guns" (those that can only be shot by their owner via fingerprint, etc.) should be available to purchase for those who want them. They don't need to be mandated for all guns, but should be available. The fact that they are not available because the NRA is afraid they will be made mandatory is stupid.
4) Thorough background checks should be mandatory, closing the private sale and gun-show loopholes.

I am not saying my ideas would have changed Dallas or Sandy Hook, but it could not have made it worse...



Didn't call anyone a anti gun nut!

1. YOU don't get to decide what weapon I may or may not chose, so no one cares that you think they are a good or a bad idea!
2. See number one, your opinion does not matter on this, the Constitution secures it!
3. Any mechanism can be bypassed and if there was demand for such a mechanism they would build it and make it available, but you're probably against capitalism too.
4. You have NO idea what a background check consists of already, and criminals don't go through them, so don't criminalize it. And making someone a criminal because they sold a shotgun to someone else is just plain stupid and as for the gun show loop hole, tell me again how your not an anti gun nut?

STOP blaming the weapon and BLAME the INDIVIDUAL who misuses it, murder is illegal no matter how you commit it, you can kill someone with your bare hands, we gonna ban those too? And lastly stop making the NRA the boogey man for this.

:roll:

T2

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:04 am
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Hey guys!

I'm not an american, so I hope it's ok that I share my view on this matter? It's often good to have an outside perspective on a debate that has become too polarized to be productive.

So, first, I'm from Sweden and here there are guns but mostly used by hunters. Anyone can buy a gun, but you need a license first (just like driving a car). So you know how to handle it and you have proved yourself skilled. You also need to be part of a sporting organization that can verify you have the necessary training and experience. We also have criminals that obtained their guns illegally and there has been some shootings among these fractions.
But there has not been any mass shootings.

After reading this thread it's obvious that the ones who are to blame are those who fired their guns at others. Guns by themselves are not to blame for the situation in your country.
The NRA are also not to blame, their language and press releases in the wake of terrible events really makes me question their sanity, but they are just standing by what they think is right and I'm sure they did not send anyone to commit crimes with guns.

But what is to blame for this? If it's not the guns and the organization promoting their use? Is it TV? Music?
Actually, I have an idea that it has more to do with your way of life.

In Sweden, guns aren't debated as heavily, since it is no issue. We and our lawmakers decided that long ago. The laws we all have creates the norms and values on which our society is built.
Now, norms and values change over time and so should our laws to reflect the will of the people, since we decide how to be governed. But this requires that we show up on election day and stay informed on matters that are important to us. It's also important hear the other side and really understand what they mean and what they are coming from.

Your way of life has obviously served you well since 1791 and you have prospered into a great nation. One that has had cultural influence on the world.
But is your way of life still serving you well? If no, ask yourselves what need to change.

Is your media outlets and experts serving you or themselves?

This has been the ramblings of a swede far away up in the north where the polar bears roam the streets (or do they?). What do I know?

I'll leave you with a video on the matter I saw recently that made me both laugh and feel sad at the same time.
They make a good point.


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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:52 am
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I believe it does take a bigger set of cajoñes and a greater level of commitment and determination to kill with a knife than with a gun.
There are dozens upon dozens of ways to kill someone.
Using a gun simply offers a little insulation from the messiness.
Metaphorically, the gun user's hands get dirty but not in the physical, actual sense the same way a knife, axe, sword, etc. user's do.
It takes a different kind of person to exhert the strength needed to kill that way.
There is a difference.
It does not require as much energy or rage to stand in the shadows at a safe distance and squeeze off a round.
It's like the video game analogy.
First person shoot-em-up games are not the same as first person shoot-em-ups in real life, which in turn are not the same as first person hand-to-hand cutting.
It's a matter of degrees of isolation from the actual blood.
I know this from personal experience.
I hunted when I was a young man.
I know for a fact that it is one thing to raise the rifle from a hundred yards away and carefully place a slug in the front shoulder of the buck.
It is another thing entirely to take the knife and slit its throat to finish it off and then open it up to remove the entrails before packing it out of the woods.
There absolutely is a difference.

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:47 pm
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Here's my 2 cents:
The unconstitutional police thug conduct that has gone on unchecked in our country is the catalyst......NOT guns. If our corrupt government has its way, we will all be unarmed....except government agents (cops).
Injecting race into this a fools game.
I shed no tears for the Dallas cops, for as the saying goes..........
There's two kinds of cops in this country........the ones who are corrupt...........and their accomplices.


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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:25 pm
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I do not believe it is productive to paint all police officers with the same brush.
I have met some decent cops.
I will admit they are likely the minority but they do exist.

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:46 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I do not believe it is productive to paint all police officers with the same brush.
I have met some decent cops.
I will admit they are likely the minority but they do exist.

But it is up to that minority to effect change from within, which is not happening.
The governent refuses to prosecute itself (courts refuse to hold police accountable for violating our rights).
That leaves change to either happen from within......or the occurrence of ever more Dallas scenarios.


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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:31 pm
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The police are not the problem. Are there a few who do wrong, yep, but they are the minority. I know many officers and have met many across this country, and the only folks blaming the police are those who are skirting the law. I have never had a single officer give me a hard time for anything, but then again I don't make a practice of breaking the law.

The officers in Dallas were simply doing their job when they were ambushed, PERIOD! To blame them is total tom foolery.

The real problem is the total lack of personal accountability of many Americans. Many in our society are making poor choices and run afoul of the police as they make those choices. We have a loud minority in our society that in many ways wants to blame someone else for their choices. The majority of folks in this country are fed up with these whiny azz folks.

Many major American cities have become cesspools by the failed policies of this liberal minority. Just look at cities like Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Los Angeles, Washington DC, Jacksonville, and the list goes on. Most of these cities politicians (and the people that voted for them) have become corrupted. They live off the hard working people who are completely fed up with the situation. Many of these cities politicians are in complete denial of the criminal element within their areas with gangs committing a vast majority of the crimes committed. Chicago even goes so far as to negotiate with these gangs, it does not get much more corrupt than that.

So the next time you want to spout off about the Police, guns, or crime you need to look inside yourself and ask if you are one of those that back this level of corruption with your apathy and lack of a good moral compass.

T2

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:43 pm
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^ +100

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:56 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
The police are not the problem. Are there a few who do wrong, yep, but they are the minority. I know many officers and have met many across this country, and the only folks blaming the police are those who are skirting the law. I have never had a single officer give me a hard time for anything, but then again I don't make a practice of breaking the law.

The officers in Dallas were simply doing their job when they were ambushed, PERIOD! To blame them is total tom foolery.

The real problem is the total lack of personal accountability of many Americans. Many in our society are making poor choices and run afoul of the police as they make those choices. We have a loud minority in our society that in many ways wants to blame someone else for their choices. The majority of folks in this country are fed up with these whiny azz folks.

Many major American cities have become cesspools by the failed policies of this liberal minority. Just look at cities like Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Los Angeles, Washington DC, Jacksonville, and the list goes on. Most of these cities politicians (and the people that voted for them) have become corrupted. They live off the hard working people who are completely fed up with the situation. Many of these cities politicians are in complete denial of the criminal element within their areas with gangs committing a vast majority of the crimes committed. Chicago even goes so far as to negotiate with these gangs, it does not get much more corrupt than that.

So the next time you want to spout off about the Police, guns, or crime you need to look inside yourself and ask if you are one of those that back this level of corruption with your apathy and lack of a good moral compass.

T2


Agree 100%. I have many friends and co-workers who are current or former members of law enforcement. The vast majority of police are good people who are working an incredibly dangerous and thankless job. Yes, there are bad apples (as there are in any line of work), and the bad cops should be punished to the full extent of the law. But to paint the police on the whole as the problem is prejudicial and counter-productive.

I am not a politician, nor an expert on guns. But I do know that these mass shootings seem to be happening here in the US far more than anywhere else in the civilized world. That is unacceptable. I hope and pray that we can get to the root of this problem before another elementary school class gets taken out by a psychopath with an AR-15.


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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:03 pm
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Detroit is not in the condition it is in because of any noisy liberal minority.
The automobile industry left the city without an adequate economic base.
Where poverty is on the rise, crime follows suit.
The choices of big business affected the city adversely.

Concerning those choices, in a very real sense, we are to blame for Detroit and other places like it.
We continue to choose outsourced manufactured goods because they have a lower price point.
It is a very short sighted practice we have adopted and we have become addicted to it.
We love being able to get 2 or 3 for the price of 1 and we don't seem to care that these things don't last because we have been suckered into the planned obsolescence scam.
It's very disheartening for those of us who remember a time when quality was valued and sought.
The very real downside to it is that the little bit of cash we save in the short term costs us our lives in the long run.
We need to learn to protect our own economies.
We won't do that until we learn to value quality over quantity and make the choice to spend more to get less in the short term in order to save more of what we have in the long haul.
We are all guilty.
We continue to buy Joyo pedals instead of Fulltone or Mesa Boogie.
The uncomfortable truth of it is that it may already be too late.
The trend we have started has progressed so far that few people have the ability to make any other choices anymore.
Until we learn that lesson our economy will continue to suffer and crime will continue to rise and we will continue to have to discuss tragic events.

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:10 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
The police are not the problem. Are there a few who do wrong, yep, but they are the minority. I know many officers and have met many across this country, and the only folks blaming the police are those who are skirting the law. I have never had a single officer give me a hard time for anything, but then again I don't make a practice of breaking the law.

The officers in Dallas were simply doing their job when they were ambushed, PERIOD! To blame them is total tom foolery.

The real problem is the total lack of personal accountability of many Americans. Many in our society are making poor choices and run afoul of the police as they make those choices. We have a loud minority in our society that in many ways wants to blame someone else for their choices. The majority of folks in this country are fed up with these whiny azz folks.

Many major American cities have become cesspools by the failed policies of this liberal minority. Just look at cities like Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, Los Angeles, Washington DC, Jacksonville, and the list goes on. Most of these cities politicians (and the people that voted for them) have become corrupted. They live off the hard working people who are completely fed up with the situation. Many of these cities politicians are in complete denial of the criminal element within their areas with gangs committing a vast majority of the crimes committed. Chicago even goes so far as to negotiate with these gangs, it does not get much more corrupt than that.

So the next time you want to spout off about the Police, guns, or crime you need to look inside yourself and ask if you are one of those that back this level of corruption with your apathy and lack of a good moral compass.

T2

"The police are not the problem. Are there a few who do wrong, yep, but they are the minority. I know many officers and have met many across this country, and the only folks blaming the police are those who are skirting the law. I have never had a single officer give me a hard time for anything, but then again I don't make a practice of breaking the law. "
.
I stopped reading after this 1st paragraph because you don't know what the phuck you're talking about!
There's a well known term for those like you...."Cop-Sucker".....for if YOU have'nt been an innocent victim of corrupt police, therefore it "must not be happening".
.
I have been fighting police corruption for almost 7 years now (and a district attorney) who fabricated a search warrant on my home only as a means to connect to someone ELSE'S home. That someone else was my brother who sent a chic's husband in the cop and DA'circle a pic of her screwing around with said brother.
My brother owned his own home, and the corrupt police and prosecutor KNEW it.
I've seen how federal court judges actually LIE (in their rulings) to protect anything a prosecutor does (in this case-ordering a cop to fabricate evidence)....I've seen courtroom reporters LIE on transcripts as to testimony (to protect said officials).....and I've witnessed said prosecutor now trying to forfiet and destroy two cell phones of which PROVE my allegations, and were NOT used in any crimes EXCEPT by said prosecutor.
MANY thousands of dollars........waaaay too much court corruption than I can even cover here.....SIX years and counting of my life trying to achieve justice, and the ONE thing I see over and over again are people like you who worship our government so much that your head is up their $@! where you refuse to see.


Last edited by ckmckool on Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:47 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:16 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Detroit is not in the condition it is in because of any noisy liberal minority.
The automobile industry left the city without an adequate economic base.
Where poverty is on the rise, crime follows suit.
The choices of big business affected the city adversely.

Concerning those choices, in a very real sense, we are to blame for Detroit and other places like it.
We continue to choose outsourced manufactured goods because they have a lower price point.
It is a very short sighted practice we have adopted and we have become addicted to it.
We love being able to get 2 or 3 for the price of 1 and we don't seem to care that these things don't last because we have been suckered into the planned obsolescence scam.
It's very disheartening for those of us who remember a time when quality was valued and sought.
The very real downside to it is that the little bit of cash we save in the short term costs us our lives in the long run.
We need to learn to protect our own economies.
We won't do that until we learn to value quality over quantity and make the choice to spend more to get less in the short term in order to save more of what we have in the long haul.
We are all guilty.
We continue to buy Joyo pedals instead of Fulltone or Mesa Boogie.
The uncomfortable truth of it is that it may already be too late.
The trend we have started has progressed so far that few people have the ability to make any other choices anymore.
Until we learn that lesson our economy will continue to suffer and crime will continue to rise and we will continue to have to discuss tragic events.

Very good points.
There would be FAR less crimes in the inner cities who experience high crime rates if there were gainful employment. ..... (and I DON'T mean Mcdonalds).


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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:24 pm
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^ BMW-KTM about the only thing I can agree with in your statements is: "Where poverty is on the rise, crime follows suit."
How to break that chain is key. Protectionism isn't the answer IMO, neither are 'giveaways'. It's a global market...get used to it. Where would you draw the boundaries? Continent, Country, Region, State, City? Any boundary will be cause for argument by one faction, depending on how it affects them.

I see education and skill training/development as the hope. There are decent paying jobs to be had for the qualified.

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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:33 pm
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IM4Tone wrote:
^ BMW-KTM about the only thing I can agree with in your statements is: "Where poverty is on the rise, crime follows suit."
How to break that chain is key. Protectionism isn't the answer IMO, neither are 'giveaways'. It's a global market...get used to it. Where would you draw the boundaries? Continent, Country, Region, State, City? Any boundary will be cause for argument by one faction, depending on how it affects them.

I see education and skill training/development as the hope. There are decent paying jobs to be had for the qualified.

As a former life long republican, it pains me to say this.......but protectionism is warranted.
We cannot break the cycle of poverty and it's resultant crime without decent gainful employment.
We should'nt need all the government funds for the poor.
If I have to pay more for a guitar or pedal, I'm ok with that. We've become too materialistic.....and the result is our wealth being transferred to places like communist China.
If there's one thing I've learned over my 57 years, it's that there are very few "absolutes".
Absolute bleeding of our wealth, industries, and borders are counter productive.
How many guitars (foreign) do we REALLY need hanging on our walls?


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Post subject: Re: 5 Dallas LEO's Murdered
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:51 pm
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ckmckool wrote:
....As a former life long republican, it pains me to say this.......but protectionism is warranted.
We cannot break the cycle of poverty and it's resultant crime without decent gainful employment.
.........Absolute bleeding of our wealth, industries, and borders are counter productive.

As I stated before: Where are the boundaries (borders)? Is it Detroit, is it Michigan, the upper mid-West, USA, Canada???? Where do we protect.
There are jobs for the qualified. The focus should be in helping those in need to get qualified.

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