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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:47 pm
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What's worse is that I have, on occasion, tried to work with such "musicians"...people who were trained in grade school, high school, marching band, etc., and I have to say that as a contemporary musician, most of those people are complete rubbish if they don't have sheet music glued to their noses...because that is how they were "trained". I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but they're simply NOT musicians...they are computers...processors...robots. The music goes in their eyes and out thru their hands. There is NOTHING of their own hearts or souls involved and certainly little or no ear training. I tried working with a drummer like this once...if this person didn't have the sheet music or happen to have the song memorized, their hands did not move. Tried doing a couple of standards, like SRV's "Pride & Joy" and this person wasn't even able to comprehend that wow.....even Stevie Ray Vaughn seldom played it the same way twice. Tried doing Neil Young's "Hurricane" and yea...I kind of took off with the lead (sorry, but really FUN tune to play, LOL). About half way thru the 3rd verse, this person just stopped because they ran out of the sheet music in their head...wasn't even listening to what the rest of the band was doing. Measure for measure, beat for beat, this person played each and every tune the EXACT same way, every single time...if I really wanted to play like the record, I'd just listen to the stinkin' record.

This is baloney. So you put a monkey on a bongo and he's a musician. :)


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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 3:18 am
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
Then there's the parent who chooses the instrument for their child only to fulfill their own dream instead of the child's. The first music those parents should listen to is their children's voice IMO. A little guidance permitted of course.

FSB


Very well said! When it comes to children, unfortunately a lot of people will put their kids into a music program...or the wrong type of music program or even with the wrong teacher...for all the wrong reasons. I guess if the kid has posters of Yo yo Ma up in their bedroom, yea...sure...enroll them in a classical program at their local school to get them started, but otherwise...........


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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:14 am
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GTG wrote:
What's worse is that I have, on occasion, tried to work with such "musicians"...people who were trained in grade school, high school, marching band, etc., and I have to say that as a contemporary musician, most of those people are complete rubbish if they don't have sheet music glued to their noses...because that is how they were "trained". I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but they're simply NOT musicians...they are computers...processors...robots. The music goes in their eyes and out thru their hands. There is NOTHING of their own hearts or souls involved and certainly little or no ear training. I tried working with a drummer like this once...if this person didn't have the sheet music or happen to have the song memorized, their hands did not move. Tried doing a couple of standards, like SRV's "Pride & Joy" and this person wasn't even able to comprehend that wow.....even Stevie Ray Vaughn seldom played it the same way twice. Tried doing Neil Young's "Hurricane" and yea...I kind of took off with the lead (sorry, but really FUN tune to play, LOL). About half way thru the 3rd verse, this person just stopped because they ran out of the sheet music in their head...wasn't even listening to what the rest of the band was doing. Measure for measure, beat for beat, this person played each and every tune the EXACT same way, every single time...if I really wanted to play like the record, I'd just listen to the stinkin' record.

This is baloney. So you put a monkey on a bongo and he's a musician. :)

I agree about this one...
Yes, sight-reading and being able to transcribe music is an amazing skill to have, and pays off in many artistic endeavors...however...

I have played with a few "educated" musicians who were creatively crippled due to their being "glued to the page." Worse yet, if the unfamiliar song was reliant on "feel," no matter how the simple the musical style, it became dang near impossible for them to perform.

I jammed with a young friend of the Armadillo Teen, who had fifteen years of classical piano training, seven or so years of "school band" saxophone, and great success playing keyboards and saxophone in a couple of amateur orchestras as well as her father's cover band (mostly 80`s rock).

The girl rocks--she can play almost anything...she is not yet out of her teens, and can out-play most musicians I know...except something that has not been (1) transcribed or (2) listened to 1000 times.

I threw some of the simplistic songs I wrote at her, and she felt really uncomfortable, even though they were I-IV-V progressions with simple melodies.

By contrast, I can look at a piece of sheet music and vaguely (very vaguely) tell the tempo and the gist of the melody...there's no way I can play what's on the page, I have neither the training nor inclination to learn.

But if you tell me the chords, play the melody and give me a minute, I'll usually be able to give you an acceptable addition to the song (even if it doesn't follow the original exactly)...and I can write you a song in ten minutes when I am suitably inspired.

Creativity outranks education, in my opinion.

Interestingly enough, though, she has picked up the ukele and the bass, and has purposely ignored and avoided any kind of training. She plays both of them "incorrectly" (they're strung right-handed yet she plays them southpaw)--and she shows great creativity and flexibility on those instruments.

She also branched out and started playing keys and sax in both a jazz quartet (a genre she didn't play much in the past) and a large Tejano band (a genre she NEVER played in the past), and shows flexibility and creativity there, too.

I think the sheet music and constant "play it exactly as written" has tamped down her creativity on the instruments and genres she has "trained" heavily.

There's nothing wrong with "learning to read," as long as you also learn how to tell your own story along the way.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:40 am
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
Creativity outranks education, in my opinion.

IMO, it depends on the situation. You might outplay those kinds of players in a blues jam. But if you ever find yourself in an orchestra pit with the entire score of a broadway musical in front of you, you'll quickly learn your limitations. Each approach has its own merits. I'm currently working on my sight reading for that reason.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:02 am
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......and then there's Rebecca, our own Texas Guitar Slinger :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:04 am
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
I threw some of the simplistic songs I wrote at her, and she felt really uncomfortable, even though they were I-IV-V progressions with simple melodies.


I think that's maybe the single thing that irritates me the most about some of these so-called classically trained people...they simply have no concept what so ever of how to "jam" (or "improvise" for those more technically inclined). I'm sure someone out there will probably disagree with this, but having grown up from a blues back ground, if you can't jam over a simple I-IV-V...then damn...what's the point?

Again I guess it's a matter of perspective and it depends on the type of music you play. If you play classical and you're in an orchestra, then sure...everyone needs a written copy of Beethoven's 5th (although you usually have a "conductor" to interpret). But for the most part, I prefer to work with people who can simply lay it down and jam a bit. Throw a riff or pattern out there and see where it flies to...and if the ONLY thing you know how to do is play from sheet music, then you're simply NOT going to be able to jump in there.

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By contrast, I can look at a piece of sheet music and vaguely (very vaguely) tell the tempo and the gist of the melody...there's no way I can play what's on the page, I have neither the training nor inclination to learn.

But if you tell me the chords, play the melody and give me a minute, I'll usually be able to give you an acceptable addition to the song (even if it doesn't follow the original exactly)...and I can write you a song in ten minutes when I am suitably inspired.


I absolutely have to agree with this. Ok...by all definitions, I'm a contemporary guitar player. I -LOVE- classical music, but as a musician, that's NOT what I do. For the most part, I play cover material.....and usually a rather wide range of it.

Now in my very earliest of years, I was in fact trained to play from sheet music...even in private lessons. Fortunately in the years after I had quit music altogether, I had forgotten most of it and when I want back in my late teens, I was fortunate to have a teacher who didn't actually read music...he taught me the basic of how to improvise and "find my own way". Today, I can read a little.....if I sit there and work it out...and I can certainly read chord charts and a bit of tab, BUT most of what I do, simply comes down to being able to play by ear. Give me a recording of the tune and a week or so to get the major parts down and I'm usually good to go.

In short, given a choice between sheet music and playing by ear, as a contemporary musician (guitar, bass, drums, etc) being able to play by ear has taken me CONSIDERABLY further than ANY piece of sheet music EVER could.

I will also say that I'm very much a big believer in "putting one's own spit on the tune". I really just NEVER saw the point of playing a tune "note for note"...if people really want to listen to the record, then dang...just listen to the record, LOL! The best example I can think of here were 2 Heart concerts I got to see. The first was at the old Cleveland Coliseum (which I guess tips my age a bit)...they played pretty much every tune exactly like it was on the album. BORING! Could have been a bunch of fakes up there just lip-syncing to the records for all we knew. Then there was the "Bad Animals" tour...that was just WICKED. Like watching a totally different band...even though it was the same band and the two concerts were just a few years apart. Seriously...if you're gonna play live, then it's about "entertaining" and most people really don't care if you sound "just like so and so".

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Creativity outranks education, in my opinion.


I'm only going to half agree with that...but only so far as I think that "education" is a subjective term in and of itself. Having -some- understanding of stuff like music theory can certainly be a benefit to most players. It's certainly good if you understand the relationship of that I-IV-V to say, a minor pentatonic scale. That said, this should not implicitly suggest the need for any sense of formal training either...in fact many so-called music teachers often over-look such concepts in favor of "Mel Bay's Modern Guitar Method" (or similar printed rubbish). What's more is that such teachers and such books are usually hard pressed to actually teach a student "feel"...and that's not something you can really learn from sheet music.

In other words, I do think that some education...some basic understanding of music as a whole is helpful, but in an age where an ambitious student can easily flip thru Youtube videos for tutorials and jam tracks, it's not nearly as important as some sense of creativity when it comes to most forms of contemporary music.


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There's nothing wrong with "learning to read," as long as you also learn how to tell your own story along the way.


Reading is fine, but it can be a serious disadvantage if that's ALL a player knows how to do. At the risk of going horribly philosophical here, music is NOT the notes on the page, music is what comes from the heart and soul...those notes, scales and chords should simply help someone to more eloquently express what's already there.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:56 am
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strings10927 wrote:
Screamin Armadillo wrote:
Creativity outranks education, in my opinion.

IMO, it depends on the situation. You might outplay those kinds of players in a blues jam. But if you ever find yourself in an orchestra pit with the entire score of a broadway musical in front of you, you'll quickly learn your limitations. Each approach has its own merits. I'm currently working on my sight reading for that reason.



I agree in so far that yes, it depends on the situation. BUT...

As a person who for all intensive purposes considers himself a "weekend warrior", why should I have ANY desire to be in that orchestra pit to begin with? I play mostly cover material of classic rock, blues and the occasional original...that's what I enjoy playing, so that's what I do...why should I be interested in a Broadway musical to begin with? Is that score from "Oklahoma" really gonna help me improvise a lead on "Sweet Home Alabama" during an average Saturday night gig at the local juke joint when I have a dance floor full of drunks? Really??

We are essentially talking about two very different disciplines here. It's like saying that an orange isn't an apple because wow...it's not red and doesn't taste like an orange. In the 30 years I've been playing (since having picked the guitar back up in my late teens), I have NEVER...not even once...had a desire to jump into that orchestra pit to engage in an evening's worth of "Guys and Dolls" (although we did cover "Greased Lighting" in one band I played with years ago, LOL!).

So here's the rub...to keep this relative, let's assume that our proverbial little Johnny (or little Sally) wants to learn "guitar". What, exactly, is the point of teaching the kid a bunch of irrelevant stuff like reading those Broadway scores, if the kid is bopping around the house listening to the local pop station? Again, if the kid has posters of Yo Ya Ma up on the bedroom walls, that's different...and certainly I'd probably run circles around such a person at said proverbial blues jam (even with my utterly feeble skills), BUT...why should we assume that person would be at the blues jam to begin with?

And this is where I think we have a problem here....no...I have no desire to jump into that orchestra pit. It's not only about understanding my so-called "limitations", it's about my own tastes and preferences as a musician. Again I play the music that I do because wow...that's what -I- enjoy playing. -If- that orchestra pit were somehow imposed on me, I'd probably do something OTHER than music...as a musician at least regardless of genre, if you don't enjoy what you're doing, then why do it? The problem however, is that I have ran into people who DO try and do it the other way around. A person who played trumpet in marching band or maybe sax in that orchestra pit may -think- they can jump right into that blues band...but they don't realize that yes, there IS a discipline here as well. If I am expected to have restraint based on my so-called limitations, shouldn't others be expected to have a similar comprehension?

-If- your goal is to play in that orchestra pit, then by all means, that's what you should pursue...and you should certainly do so by learning sheet music. If however you're more interested in that blues jam, then learning to read those musical scores serves little/no purpose what so ever. And hey...if you want to do both, cool....but understand that apples just don't taste like oranges. Your comment seems to suggest that one form of music...that orchestra pit with the Broadway musical...is somehow more valid than the blues jam....it's not. Again you are correct in that yes, it depends on the situation BUT, given a choice between that blues jam and the sound track for Oklahoma, I'll take the blues jam ANY day...and this has NOTHING to do with any sense of limitations of my part.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:19 am
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Can I read music? No, not really. Aside from following chords in a fake book, I have read and I have used drum notation in the past, which, in itself is no easy task.

But, even though I can play, albeit not as well as I would like, numerous instruments by ear, and the fact that I am blessed with a decent sense of rhythm (which seems to evade some budding musicians), I certainly see the advantage of reading music. This gift has passed me by with time and focus being my enemy.

Here is an example of where doing your thing does not work as well as being able to follow a score. I have worked with out of order multi- track recording during video recording of everything from a solo act to a symphony orchestra, and everything in between. If I didn't have help with someone who could read the score and who would alert me of the next instrument hilight, I myself followed marked notations for camera shots that I had blocked out so I could direct the next camera shot. I might only use the timings and instrumentation (guitar, drums, keyboard, horns, etc.) of the score. Sometimes, the video was shot in real time, sometimes it was out of order segments, and sometimes a redo for a better take. Pre-produced shot sheets and blocking would be useless without repetition in this case. However, multiple cameras and multiple recorders are often shown to the editing bench today. Not much help for live coverage though.

Can music video or studio recording be done without being able to read music? Sure. It's done all the time; but, one size does not fit all in this case. It all depends on the road you choose to travel. YMMV.

FSB
I also believe that reading music does not necessarily keep you from being a good or even great musician for there are those that would prove that to be untrue. The opposite is also true. The lists are long in both camps, and there are many Pros in this forum who have that variable experience. Differences in genre training and preferences could IMHO appear to be an obstacle, though.

- There are software programs in the works that will play scanned music notation; but, they are not perfect, yet. :wink:

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:29 am
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The members of The Wrecking Crew could all read sheet music......never hurt their creativity.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:32 am
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I'm taken aback by the general negativity of the comments thus far. Different strokes, I guess. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 2:22 pm
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Pudbert wrote:
The members of The Wrecking Crew could all read sheet music......never hurt their creativity.

That's very true...I never stated an educated/trained musician could nor have creativity, rather, I meant it takes an exceptional musician to be able to maintain creativity within a very strict, structured background.

The Wrecking Crew members certainly qualify as exceptional.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 3:54 am
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Pudbert wrote:
The members of The Wrecking Crew could all read sheet music......never hurt their creativity.



I agree here and I certainly don't have a problem with this. -If- a person can sight read and still be able to play by ear and put something of themselves into the work, that's an obvious advantage for some folks...particularly for session musicians. I personally feel that for most contemporary styles of music, the ear training is usually more important, but there can be some advantages for some people to have both tool sets at their disposal.

My issue, as I've stated elsewhere, are the people who HAVE TO HAVE the sheet music in order to play. Those people that when you take the sheet music away, their hands just stop...it's like unplugging a machine...and unfortunately there seems to be a rather significant number of classically trained people who fall into this category. This is yet another reason I have issues with this term we call "classical training" (particularly schools...grade schools, high schools, marching band, private lessons, etc). From my experience, there is often little or no attempt to train the student's ear...they are taught the sheet music and that's it. They are taught to read and translate, they are NOT taught to "create" and concepts such as individual thought, experimentation, self expression, etc., are typically discouraged. For some forms of music and some disciplines this is fine, if not expected, but it is NOT the end all, be all of music as a whole. Seriously, where would rock music be today if people didn't experiment? Think about it...

As far as the wrecking crew goes specifically, as the Armadillo said, these were an exceptional bunch of individuals (although one should probably wonder how much of their notoriety comes from simply being "in the right place at the right time"). That said however, I'm not sure how someone can hold them up as being typical of people who read music as a whole. The comment seems to take a very small percentage of exceptional musicians and seemingly tries to apply their skill set to all those who read...which is rather naive, if not totally absurd. I would also point out that just as there is a difference between someone interested in those blues jams and people interested in sitting in that orchestra pit, the people in the wrecking crew were, for the most part, session musicians. Again this is a rather different discipline that requires a different skill set. I would also point out that as with that orchestra pit, while I won't speak for others, personally even as a cover musician, I would have little/no interest in doing such session work. Such skills would be of little/no benefit for the type of work that I...and many others do.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:23 am
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lomitus wrote:
As a person who for all intensive purposes considers himself a "weekend warrior", why should I have ANY desire to be in that orchestra pit to begin with? I play mostly cover material of classic rock, blues and the occasional original...that's what I enjoy playing, so that's what I do...why should I be interested in a Broadway musical to begin with?

Well, see that used to be me. When I started playing (at 12 years old), I wanted to learn AC/DC/Led Zep/Black Sabbath etc. and after going through one method book, I was reading pretty much all tablature and chord symbols, no black dots.

Fast-forward about 25 years, and I have zero interest in learning AC/DC/Led Zep/Black Sabbath etc. It gets a little boring playing the same songs for a couple of decades.

The first musical I played, I had to translate almost the entire score into tablature. :shock: I couldn't help but notice the people who were good sight readers weren't working nearly as hard to achieve the same results.

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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:25 am
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lomitus wrote:
I think that's maybe the single thing that irritates me the most about some of these so-called classically trained people...they simply have no concept what so ever of how to "jam" (or "improvise" for those more technically inclined). I'm sure someone out there will probably disagree with this, but having grown up from a blues back ground, if you can't jam over a simple I-IV-V...then damn...what's the point?


By that measure, Bach and Vivaldi were useless.
I think there are room for both those who plan what to play and those who adapt while playing. Neither is more "right" than the other.
Even for modern music, many of the best studio albums were not done in one take, but the players repeated stuff until they got it right.

Personally, I think the best all-round musicians are those who both (a) can read music and understand theory, but also can deviate from the score when appropriate, and (b) can improvise and adapt, but also play exactly what is called for in the score when that's appropriate.
Inflexibility when faced with changing circumstances and going off on tangents with total disregard for the rest of the ensemble are equally bad, in my opinion.


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Post subject: Re: Fender Daughter Blues
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:43 am
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arth1 wrote:
lomitus wrote:
I think that's maybe the single thing that irritates me the most about some of these so-called classically trained people...they simply have no concept what so ever of how to "jam" (or "improvise" for those more technically inclined). I'm sure someone out there will probably disagree with this, but having grown up from a blues back ground, if you can't jam over a simple I-IV-V...then damn...what's the point?


By that measure, Bach and Vivaldi were useless.
I think there are room for both those who plan what to play and those who adapt while playing. Neither is more "right" than the other.
Even for modern music, many of the best studio albums were not done in one take, but the players repeated stuff until they got it right.

Personally, I think the best all-round musicians are those who both (a) can read music and understand theory, but also can deviate from the score when appropriate, and (b) can improvise and adapt, but also play exactly what is called for in the score when that's appropriate.
Inflexibility when faced with changing circumstances and going off on tangents with total disregard for the rest of the ensemble are equally bad, in my opinion.

I agree completely with Arth1

“To play without passion is inexcusable!”
― Ludwig van Beethoven - Famous composer and sheet music enthusiast.


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