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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:11 pm
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Since you all have given this so much attention , I have a question. Why don't acoustic guitars need intonation adjustment? Or should I say , why do I hear the intonation issues more on an electric then acoustic?


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:30 pm
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Eroot64 wrote:
Since you all have given this so much attention , I have a question. Why don't acoustic guitars need intonation adjustment? Or should I say , why do I hear the intonation issues more on an electric then acoustic?

Most good acoustic guitars have compensated bridges.
But part of the reason is the scale length. The longer the scale, the larger the intonation drift. Acoustics generally have a shorter scale length, so the problem is less severe. The Fender baritone electric guitars are infamous for bad intonation because of the long scale length without a bridge that allows for more compensation.

For classical (nylon string) guitars, the gauge is also much higher and the strings far more elastic, which reduces the problem. (Except for carbon strings, which yes, can cause intonation problems.)


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:52 pm
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I generally use a Boss TU2 pedal, and then adjust to what my ears are saying.

I guess I don't obsess about intonation the way some of y'all do...after a good setup and strobe tuning, my instruments seem to do just fine, without wiggly frets or staggered nuts...of course, I'm generally playing a style with a lot of string bends or with a metal slide on my pinky (or both) so I'm probably unconsciously compensating on the fly.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:36 pm
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Slide is the ultimate master of intonation^^^. You're playing on your ear constantly. frets are only rough markers.

Tuning to open chords, then sliding into position for chord changes negates all intonation problems as you slide to an equal position. Parallel to the nut. Rather than fretting where you cause different gauge strings to have more or less tension by fretting them. I think that's a huge factor. You see metal players tuned down to low C#, or B. Ask them to play slowly, with a clean sound, they avoid those bass strings where possible.

I agree, obsessing about intonation is fruitless. It near drove me crazy. My therapy is a LP JR. And no, it doesn't have the lightning bolt tailpiece.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:55 am
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OK a better example (since Cher doesn't need it like other singers do) ...

Selena Gomez is recording an album of her "vocal stylings" and going out on tour. :roll:
You stand to make a lot of money. If it were me, I'd be on that stage collecting money to fund better projects.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:13 am
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Intonation should be set.......but I find that smaller fretwire action and consistent string gauge helps.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:46 am
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Arth1, intonation drift is a term that refers to the losing or gaining of pitch over the course of a performance.
It is an ongoing comparison over time. It is somewhat similar to a gliss (glissando) but unlike a gliss, it is not intentional and it is far more subtle. It is a type of performance error, commonly associated with a-cappella singing.

To the best of my knowledge that is the only definition of intonational drift.

Could you please use another expression to clarify your meaning?

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:49 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Arth1, intonation drift is a term that refers to the losing or gaining of pitch over the course of a performance.
It is an ongoing comparison over time. It is somewhat similar to a gliss (glissando) but unlike a gliss, it is not intentional and it is far more subtle. It is a type of performance error, commonly associated with a-cappella singing.

To the best of my knowledge that is the only definition of intonational drift.

Could you please use another expression to clarify your meaning?


Sure can. Does "possible intonation offset" or "intonation error" work better? (Although it fails to capture that the problem usually drifts towards worse the further away you are from the nut.)

And intonational drift is not always subtle. In much medieval music it is unavoidable, because it's built on just intonation - if you sing in perfect pitch and progress three major thirds, and then go down an octave, you end up around 42 cents below your original note. With several verses, the offset can become quite large.

Here's a good example: The starting note and end note would be the same in equal temperament:


And in this case, it's not because the singers drift; it's the melody that does it. Orlande de Lassus was a musical genius, and certainly knew this effect well.


Last edited by arth1 on Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:34 pm
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Not really.
Offset and error by themselves don't give me a reference point.
I think what you are saying is that a longer scale length means a greater length of adjustment is necessary to change a given string's frequency by one cycle/second. Like, X inches per Hz or something along that line.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:03 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Not really.
Offset and error by themselves don't give me a reference point.
I think what you are saying is that a longer scale length means a greater length of adjustment is necessary to change a given string's frequency by one cycle/second. Like, X inches per Hz or something along that line.

The longer the scale length, the greater the "worst case" offset from perfect intonation becomes, unless you also increase the string gauge and drop the tuning proportionally, so everything scales. But a 25.5" Fender with .010s will generally have more of an offset to compensate for than a 24.75" Gibson with the same strings. Drop to a 24" acoustic steel string guitar, and there's even less.

That you also have to adjust a larger distance with longer scale length is incidental (but certainly noteworthy too, as being able to compensate is a problem on some Fender baritones that come with a standard bridge with short intonation screws).

With a shorter scale, the problem is usually less noticeable.

For classical guitars, some of which have a longer scale length, the strings are a much thicker gauge and more elastic, which masks the problem somewhat, as the difference between the sharper attack and flatter sustain is (relatively) bigger. But it's certainly a concern for all fretted instruments.
A minority of Flamenco players play with very high tension and carbon fiber strings (which lets them lower the action significantly and play rasgueados harder), and you can then hear that the intonation is off on some frets, but that's the exception and not the rule.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:17 pm
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arth1 wrote:
The longer the scale length, the greater the "worst case" offset from perfect intonation becomes, unless you also increase the string gauge and drop the tuning proportionally, so everything scales. But a 25.5" Fender with .010s will generally have more of an offset to compensate for than a 24.75" Gibson with the same strings.

I'm still not getting you.
Offset?
Are you referring to the angle the individual saddles make in relation to the bridge and to each other?

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:39 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I'm still not getting you.
Offset?
Are you referring to the angle the individual saddles make in relation to the bridge and to each other?

No, when saying offset, I mean offset in pitch / cent / Hertz. When a fretted note doesn't match the pitch you should get, it's offset. Either sharp or flat.
Adjusting the intonation screws (or filing the bridge) of a fretted instrument is done to reduce the effect (generally by making the offset as small as possible at half the scale length, i.e. the 12th fret). It will never be perfect elsewhere because we can't move each fret individually, but it's "good enough for government work".

In other words, don't fret it :p


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:54 pm
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Thanks. That was the clarification I was looking for.
I'm going to ponder this a spell.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:11 pm
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I'm entering this conversation even though I don't know much about it.
My .02 cents is that watching Jimi Hendrix play and then try to tune his guitar during the set must have been frustrating, but he managed to do it and it made me wonder, how did he do that?
He knew where on the fret board to press harder or softer perhaps. You have to spend an enormous amount of time playing to learn that control, to learn finger position and muting technique to the point of changing your tuning, developing chords to fit your songs/playing.
With all of the tuner options today, the best guitarists still have problems with it.
Remember when Jimi asked Eric to come onstage to help him tune his guitar? He was smiling because he knew God (for awhile in the past people said Eric was God, lol) wouldn't be able to.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:26 pm
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Solid Body Love Songs wrote:
He knew where on the fret board to press harder or softer perhaps. You have to spend an enormous amount of time playing to learn that control, to learn finger position and muting technique to the point of changing your tuning, developing chords to fit your songs/playing.

I think most guitar gods play so much that they adjust things automatically to where it sounds best, without even thinking about it. Much like a seasoned race car driver doesn't need to look at the rpm or speed to know when to shift or brake for optimal performance, or an archer who sees a leaf move and adjusts the aim without even knowing he does it.

The most freakish guitar tuning example I can think of for is Yngwie Malmsteen strumming all six strings and then adjusting all the tuners correctly without strumming again. That's not something I think I'd be able to do no matter the amount of practice. Without a Tronical, that is.


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