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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:56 pm
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I may be a bit fastidious, but I like my guitar properly intonated. I have a snark that I use occasionally (especially for acoustic) when jamming. I really like my Peterson strobe, It has a mode called "sweetened" which for my use brings the instrument into a very useable compromise. However my ear is still my guide, doesn't matter what some device says if it doesn't sound right, it isn't.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:49 pm
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Eroot64 wrote:
if it doesn't sound right, it isn't.


The golden rule

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:06 am
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Eroot64 wrote:
I may be a bit fastidious, but I like my guitar properly intonated. I have a snark that I use occasionally (especially for acoustic) when jamming. I really like my Peterson strobe, It has a mode called "sweetened" which for my use brings the instrument into a very useable compromise. However my ear is still my guide, doesn't matter what some device says if it doesn't sound right, it isn't.


Yes, for fretted instruments like guitars, it's always a compromise. Unless you have a song where you only play open strings and harmonics, you're always going to be off. Tuning so the most you're off is as little as possible for what you're going to play is often the right choice. At present, nothing can help you with that better than your ear can.
That said, I don't see why a tuner couldn't either (a) allow you to input the keys you play in, or (b) detect what you're playing, and calculate a better compromise tuning based on that. Or even sync multiple people's tuners to the same custom tuning. (These ideas are now in the public domain. Manufacturers, feel free to use, but don't attempt to patent.)

Even for open strings, if your ear tells you the second string in a an open G sounds too sharp[*], it's not wrong to drop the B a tad as a compromise. The chords are going to be compromises anyhow, and you reduce a particularly bad case and possibly make some other chords slightly worse. That is often a good trade-off.

[*]: Some guitarists always play a third fret D when doing an open G, precisely to avoid the too sharp major third the open B string gives. Or they fret the G a bit harder to sharpen it. They may not know the technical reason for why they do either, just that they think it sounds better. Which is the best reason.

Use tuners, but don't let them rule you. They are dumb and don't understand how fretted instruments or our ears work.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:50 am
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arth1 wrote:
At present, nothing can help you with that better than your ear can.
That said, I don't see why a tuner couldn't either (a) allow you to input the keys you play in, or (b) detect what you're playing, and calculate a better compromise tuning based on that.



or even correct your low fret intonation

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:15 am
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nikininja wrote:
or even correct your low fret intonation

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Or your frets:



I believe Steve Vai also uses a "True Temperament" fret equipped JEM for some studio work. On stage, he compensates with his ears.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:40 am
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lomitus wrote:
As usual, I guess I'm the odd guy out here. For years I used to do intonation by ear and would reference a pitch fork, if and when needed. Today...yep...I use my Snarks. Can't speak to anyone else here, but for myself, using my little $10 Snark is just a hell of a lot easier...and the 3 I currently own are just wicked accurate.

The truth is that I've probably used every brand of tuner out there at one point or another...from Banana's and Radio Sharks to Boss, Sabines and Peterson strobe tuners. I'll stick with my Snarks...best thing to come along since Brother Leo invented the Strat :-)

Just my own $.02.


Hey Lomitus, thanks for your $.02 worth.
A little prep to let you know where I stand. I've played guitar, not all that well, for years now. But I've never played professionally. Having said that, when playing my guitar, I want it to sound right. I just purchased a new American Deluxe Telecaster, and I use a Snark tuner. I've always been satisfied with this tuners performance.
The intonation of the guitar is bang on, although I am having some trouble with the intonation of the low E string. It's very close, but not quite perfect. I'm not quite sure what's going on there, but I'm having trouble finding compromise. I'll soon also want to lower the action a bit, to make it more to my liking.
I used a tempered tuning process, and the guitar is in tune. However, when I play a G barre chord for instance, it just sounds out of tune. If I monitor the notes of the chord with the Snark tuner, the D note playing on the A string, is ringing sharp, hence the unacceptable overall chord tone.
Any ideas about what's causing this, and what can be done about it, to make it perfect? Perfect, what is that? :lol: Thanks......................Dave

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:43 pm
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arth1 wrote:
I believe Steve Vai also uses a "True Temperament" fret equipped JEM for some studio work. On stage, he compensates with his ears.

That is the second time I've seen that system, I think the guitar hes playing is around 6k (way out of my budget) However I just saw that that the true Temperament necks are available as retrofits for about $700 . After hearing the sound on that video I have to get one. I wonder how they feel.

http://www.truetemperament.com/necks/


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:12 pm
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Given the way loads of people moan about the difference in feel between a 7.25" radius board and a 9.5" radius board. I can't see curly frets being popular ever.

The more accurate option

Image
People weren't too interested in learning a 25 note octave either

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:08 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Given the way loads of people moan about the difference in feel between a 7.25" radius board and a 9.5" radius board. I can't see curly frets being popular ever.

The more accurate option

Image
People weren't too interested in learning a 25 note octave either

That looks interesting, what is it ? I cant make it out on the pic.

EDIT: I found it Lucy Tune , yet another can of worms to open,lol


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:03 pm
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Eroot, trust me I spent 3 years down the perfectly intoned guitar rabbit hole.
Don't go there.

The compensated nut above I measured myself using Strobesoft and an Earvanna sliding nut. Finding the very best compromise of tuning on the first 3/4 frets. Then measuring back from the first fret to the breakpoint of the sliding nut. For each and every string. Then plotted those measurements on a much shaped bone shelf nut and carved to shape.

Image


Yeah it made all my open chords sound great. My guitar is way easier to tune. But still not perfect. A lot more perfect than my other guitars, but not completely perfect.
In short the problem is the Western tempered scale. If you read the lucytuning page there is a lot on there about the invention of that scale. By a bloke 30 miles from me. Also there is music played on lucytuned instruments. Personally I find it a little jarring to listen to. I've got too used to hearing out of tune music.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:13 am
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nikininja wrote:
In short the problem is the Western tempered scale.

Indeed - our ears want a fifth to be 3/2 times the frequency of the base note, and a major third to be 5/4 times the frequency of the base note, because it's harmonious.
Equal temperament allows for easy transposing, but a major third is 400 cents from the base note, while our ear wants it lower, at around 386 cents.

But the additional problem with fretted instruments like a guitar is when the scale length is in flux. When we adjust intonation for a string, we change the scale length for that string, but the frets don't also creep up and down accordingly. So it won't even match equal temperament exactly.

Most of us, I think, will eventually and perhaps unconsciously adjust our playing to make chords and harmonies sound better, compensating for the tuning that is always slightly off. Whether it's by pressing the 2nd fret 3rd string harder for an open A than an open D, or avoiding the open B in a G chord, or otherwise make micro-adjustments as we play. Without even thinking about it. When we bend strings, it's to what our ear tells us, and it seldom will match what you'd get if you fretted the same note. And we add vibrato not only for the effect, but because it masks how the tones are off. We may not think about it, but just that it sounds better.
Play it as it sounds best.

Autotune, incidentally, is the work of the devil. It negates any tiny adjustments a player makes, and everything sound as off-tune as a cheap synth. I refuse to play with anyone who uses it.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:33 am
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arth1 wrote:
Autotune, incidentally, is the work of the devil. It negates any tiny adjustments a player makes, and everything sound as off-tune as a cheap synth. I refuse to play with anyone who uses it.
I don't disagree about autotune, but you want us to believe if Cher walked up to you and said, "I love your work Arthur, it's really something special" "I'd love to have you as the guitar player on my next album and tour" .... you'd turn down the gig? :|

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:08 am
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Cher used a vocoder, not autotune. It's a different thing entirely. Telling a vocalist they can't use a vocoder is like telling a guitarist they can't use reverb.

Cher hits notes

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:44 am
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Once I have the tuning in the ball park, whether I use a tuner or a keyboard (which I also use to tune, somewhat, my drums), I too use my ears, and then I use a song or songs that I have ingrained in my mind and soul for decades to tweak the rest. In short, I begin with the mechanics and end up with the senses. I guess that comes from having had a 12 string, which is a whole other matter. :wink:
FSB

Incidentally, I took Mrs. FSB to see Cher this year. She and the guitars were sweet. So was her opener Cyndi Lauper, especially when she sang At Last.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:07 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Cher used a vocoder, not autotune. It's a different thing entirely. Telling a vocalist they can't use a vocoder is like telling a guitarist they can't use reverb.

Cher hits notes

Actually, Cher used autotune on "Believe", but as an effect, not to correct bad singing. By cranking up autotune to the max, and singing in a gliding voice, you get a step-by-step effect.

Yes, she can hit notes.
And no, she'll never ask yours truly for the time of day :)


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