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Post subject: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:40 pm
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This topic has no doubt been been discussed to the point of complete exhaustion, but I got tired of trying to search for relevant information, so let's stir the pot again.
I have a Snark tuner that I've never used for intonation adjustments, and frankly I honestly can't remember the last time I ever did intonation adjustments.
The questions are, if you were buying a tuner today, and you planned on doing regular intonation checks, What tuner would would you likely buy, and why would you buy it?
I'm interested in buying a tuner that would do the job easily, and perform somewhere around 7 or 8, 10 being perfect, and still leave me enough for groceries.

Thanks..................................Dave

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:15 pm
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You don't need a tuner for adjusting intonation.
Play the touch harmonic above the 12th fret, and compare it to the fretted 12th fret. If the touch harmonic is sharper, lengthen the string, and if it's flatter, shorten the string.

If anything, a tuner makes it harder to adjust intonation, as you have to re-tune the strings after every twist of the intonation screws before you can adjust more.

A tuner is convenient for tuning, but unless you want to adjust the intonation to a perfect fit for playing close to the end of the fretboard, there's no benefit for intonation adjustment. If you need a perfect D on the 22nd fret, go ahead and adjust the intonation with a tuner so open E and 22nd fret D both are perfect. Most people will be better off with perfect 12th fret intonation, and gradually getting ever so slightly out of pitch near the end of the fretboard. The difference is inaudible to most.

As for a good tuner, well, I'm old school and use a tuning fork to get the A, and tune the other strings to match, but for usefulness and price, the Strobe Tuner app for my phone is hard to beat. For sheer convenience, TC Electronic Polytune wins, as you can strum all six strings and see which are high and low, but it also costs a fair penny.
Cheap headstock tuners? Can't stand them myself. They pick up the string sound above the nut as well as others playing loud enough to make your guitar neck vibrate. But some swear by them. Your mileage may vary.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:39 am
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The TC Polyclip is, as mentioned above, a very convenient tuner.
I find it to be more than sensitive enough.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:13 am
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An electronic tuner has many advantages over ear adjusting - especially on gigs etc.
Plus, the basic tuning and 12th fret (or 12 frets difference; like 2/14) intonating aren't the only uses; e.g. it's also a helpful tool in checking if the nut needs adjusting - notes off on first few frets etc.

But I agree with arth1 on that an electronic tuner should never replace using your ears. It's just a tool.

I don't have a preference on any specific brand, I got a couple different ones I use. Plus a phone app.

My advice is, decide how much you want to spend, go to a store and see what they got for that price, compare the candidates, choose your favorite weapon.
But if you're a perfectionist and do a lot of guitar maintenence, I think a Peterson is the benchmark. :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:01 am
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I don't use a tuner to intone a guitar. Reason being your ears are far more suited to the job. Where tuners, especially accurate ones will give you much varied readings despite the note being in. When you hit the harmonic and it reads E 12,8,3,-5,2,-2,5, as the string vibrates, which of those variables do you go to?
Where if you discipline yourself, focus and intone to harmonic to 12th fret fretted. Then compare that to chords. You can get a much more pleasant sound, that may or may not read altogether accurate on a tuner. It's all about how the thing sounds, rather than how some gizmo reads.

Personally, I use Strobesoft at home. TC Polytune on two live rigs. And the Gibson MinE-Tune on the other rig.
Of them all, I prefer MinE-Tune. Simple, no work and gets the job done. It operates much the same as the Snark tuner does. In that it reads the vibration of the headstock. It's on a Les Paul Junior. A guitar renown for it's lack of intonation adjustment.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:15 am
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built in tuner in my Mustang III amp.

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:17 pm
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As usual, I guess I'm the odd guy out here. For years I used to do intonation by ear and would reference a pitch fork, if and when needed. Today...yep...I use my Snarks. Can't speak to anyone else here, but for myself, using my little $10 Snark is just a hell of a lot easier...and the 3 I currently own are just wicked accurate.

The truth is that I've probably used every brand of tuner out there at one point or another...from Banana's and Radio Sharks to Boss, Sabines and Peterson strobe tuners. I'll stick with my Snarks...best thing to come along since Brother Leo invented the Strat :-)

Just my own $.02.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:25 pm
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I too might be the odd man out here, regarding tuners and intonation.

I don't use a pedal tuner or a snark clip-on tuner or anything like that. Honest - I use an App on my smartphone that's simply called "Instrument Tuner" and it has an icon that looks like a tuning fork.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... uner&hl=en

Seriously... This thing is absolutely amazing! Put it in chromatic mode and you can verify intonation so accurately, it will boggle your mind! I use it for all my guitars, my mandolin, my violin, etc... and it works beautifully with all my instruments.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:36 pm
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If there's one thing that drives me nuts at jams, it's all the guys who tune on the fly by ear, and it all ends up inevitably sounding like crap. This is where a pedal is a must. Another thing that sucks is one guy on an acoustic electric tuned down a half step.....and then everyone tuning their electric guitars down on the fly, resulting in their intonation being off.
For sitting at home where it's quiet your snark tuner should suffice especially if you tune by the pinch harmonic at the 12th fret.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:01 pm
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ckmckool wrote:
If there's one thing that drives me nuts at jams, it's all the guys who tune on the fly by ear, and it all ends up inevitably sounding like crap. This is where a pedal is a must.

I beg to differ. At jams, there are often fiddles and other instruments that are tuned to just intonation, or even instruments that are hard to tune on the fly that aren't 440A, which is all that most cheap headstock tuners can do.
Being able to adjust to both the instruments you play with as well as the key is a must, and I find that more often than not, it's the guy who slavishly use tuners that ruin harmony. If you play with just intoned instruments (or singers) and can't lower the damn sharp third for the key you're playing in, but insist in keeping it 14 cents higher because your tuner tells you to, sit it out. Please. It's likely not the ones that adjust by ear that's the problem.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:08 pm
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arth1 wrote:
ckmckool wrote:
If there's one thing that drives me nuts at jams, it's all the guys who tune on the fly by ear, and it all ends up inevitably sounding like crap. This is where a pedal is a must.

I beg to differ. At jams, there are often fiddles and other instruments that are tuned to just intonation, or even instruments that are hard to tune on the fly that aren't 440A, which is all that most cheap headstock tuners can do.
Being able to adjust to both the instruments you play with as well as the key is a must, and I find that more often than not, it's the guy who slavishly use tuners that ruin harmony. If you play with just intoned instruments (or singers) and can't lower the damn sharp third for the key you're playing in, but insist in keeping it 14 cents higher because your tuner tells you to, sit it out. Please. It's likely not the ones that adjust by ear that's the problem.

No jam I've been in has had fiddles....just guitars and bass.
My experience is opposite. Someone trying to tune by ear ...to someone else who happens to be (even slighty) out of tune, screws everyone.
The best perormances myself and audiences have enjoyed, have been with all guitars using a good tuner pedal and tuned evenly.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:07 pm
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ckmckool wrote:
My experience is opposite. Someone trying to tune by ear ...to someone else who happens to be (even slighty) out of tune, screws everyone.

Oh, there certainly are bad tuners who tune by ear too. Many.
But someone who tunes by ear can get better.
Someone who always trusts a tuner will never get better.
And, in all likelihood, will never even understand why and when their instrument has to be tuned off key to what the tuner says.

It's not just fiddles, but other just intonation instruments, including some harmonicas, and even some styles of singing (like barbershop style and bluegrass harmony).
And, of course, some instruments are so hard to tune that by default every other instrument must tune to them. Including (but not limited to) acoustic pianos, harmonicas or most tin whistles. They may not be common where you are, but jam nights at the pubs here certainly mean half a dozen different instruments.

A good experienced player will adjust tuning to both other instruments and the key for the tune, if easily done. A good inexperienced player will ask why. A bad one will keep playing painfully sharp thirds and insist that it's others that are out of tune.


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:11 am
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What exactly is tuned evenly?
The western tempered scale is out of tune with itself. Even tuning is a misconception. Even tuning is what makes you out of tune.

Ask yourself this, as everyone seems to think the piano to be the ultimate note reference tool.
Why do piano's have multiple strings per note?
Why were the first electronic keyboards a failure?

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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:35 am
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arth1 wrote:
ckmckool wrote:
If there's one thing that drives me nuts at jams, it's all the guys who tune on the fly by ear, and it all ends up inevitably sounding like crap. This is where a pedal is a must.

I beg to differ. At jams, there are often fiddles and other instruments that are tuned to just intonation, or even instruments that are hard to tune on the fly that aren't 440A, which is all that most cheap headstock tuners can do.
Being able to adjust to both the instruments you play with as well as the key is a must, and I find that more often than not, it's the guy who slavishly use tuners that ruin harmony. If you play with just intoned instruments (or singers) and can't lower the damn sharp third for the key you're playing in, but insist in keeping it 14 cents higher because your tuner tells you to, sit it out. Please. It's likely not the ones that adjust by ear that's the problem.



I guess it probably depends on the type of joint you hang out in, but I have to agree with ckmckool...not that I go to a lot of jams, but I have yet to see a violin or much of anything beyond guitar, bass, drums and occasionally keys at a jam (although the fact that you call it a "fiddle" perhaps says something about the kind of joints you hang out in?). I think I saw a chick with a flute do the intro to a Marshall Tucker tune once some 30 odd years ago, but that was about it (and I use my guitar synth for the same thing now). What's more is that from my own experience at least, yea...it's usually the people who try to tune by ear who are usually the problem. The last two bands I've been in, I've gotten everyone hooked on Snarks, simply because they're easy to use, accurate and the band usually ends up sounding A LOT better.

And by the way...I don't know what kind of "cheap headstock tuners" you're referring to, but 2 of my 3 Snarks happen to be chromatic...you can tune just about any instrument with them. In fact I use one to tune my Auto Harp...works fantastic :-)


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Post subject: Re: Tuners and Intonation
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:57 am
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arth1 wrote:
ckmckool wrote:
My experience is opposite. Someone trying to tune by ear ...to someone else who happens to be (even slighty) out of tune, screws everyone.

Oh, there certainly are bad tuners who tune by ear too. Many.
But someone who tunes by ear can get better.
Someone who always trusts a tuner will never get better.
And, in all likelihood, will never even understand why and when their instrument has to be tuned off key to what the tuner says.

It's not just fiddles, but other just intonation instruments, including some harmonicas, and even some styles of singing (like barbershop style and bluegrass harmony).
And, of course, some instruments are so hard to tune that by default every other instrument must tune to them. Including (but not limited to) acoustic pianos, harmonicas or most tin whistles. They may not be common where you are, but jam nights at the pubs here certainly mean half a dozen different instruments.

A good experienced player will adjust tuning to both other instruments and the key for the tune, if easily done. A good inexperienced player will ask why. A bad one will keep playing painfully sharp thirds and insist that it's others that are out of tune.



Fiddles? Tin whistles? Barbershop? Dude, what kind of back water styx town do you live in?? LOL!!!!!!! Along with violins, I've -never- seen a genuine acoustic piano at a bar....can't imagine anyone truly insane enough to haul one around. And speaking of tuning, how the devil do you keep an acoustic piano in tune if you're moving it around from gig to gig?? That just defies the laws of physics, LOL!! In fact I have one down in my basement studio that hasn't been played in YEARS...even my el' cheapo Yamaha midi keyboard is MUCH easier to deal with (not to mention my guitar synth). And even on the occasional instance where I've worked with a blue harp player, tuning still hasn't been a problem. In fact, I play a bit of blues harp myself and I have never, NOT ONCE, had to have the rest of the band re-tune to the harmonica. Yikes, I say....YIKES!

...and in terms of "experienced players", I've been doing this whole music thing myself for over 30 years now...3 decades....both on stage and in the studio. Not sure how much more "experience" you're really looking for there.

I will say that no, I don't trust the tuner exclusively. In situation where, let's say the intonation of the guitar itself is out, yea...the tuner CAN lie to you, so it's usually best to use both the tuner AND your ears, however for most practical examples, even an inexpensive e-tuner does a pretty decent job.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but your comments really make it sound like you live in a VERY different world from the rest of us. Maybe in your world tuners are somehow a disadvantage, but for the majority of folks....at least us average weekend warriors who just like to rock out a few times a month, electronic tuners really are a blessing. For years I used to tune using nothing other than a 440 tuning fork, so I -DO- very much know how to tune by ear...e-tuners are just soooooooo much easier, faster, convenient, accurate and not nearly as dreadful as you keep trying to make them out to be.


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