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Post subject: Record for all playback?
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:25 pm
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Just wondering about how other people adjust their home recordings for different playback. I hear a huge difference between files played in my DAW (Reaper) and Windows Media Player or on Youtube. At first I thought it was just the difference between .wav and mp3s, but now realize it's just the playback software. Also, some of my songs were played on the radio and they sounded completely different than from my CD... same car stereo. I was happy how my CD sounded in my car, but when it was broadcast they seemed to put an EQ on it that really muddied it up IMO.

Anyway, all new to me and wondering if people have advise or experiences they can share.

Best!

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:02 pm
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Hey, Mark.

Your final mix problem is a fairly common issue, and it is addressed in several different ways as you are likely to discover.

Firstly, your CD copy may be sampled and played back at higher bit rates (quality) than when it is broadcast from radio, online, and so on. Any conversion (before or during transmission) from your original recording will make a difference. This could be the reason for your CD sounding better.

I have mixed copies to address what works best in the car, and I have recorded differently for what sounds better in the home. Generally, I find a happy compromise between both home and car to make my recordings. To support these chosen methods you can sometimes find pre-equalized settings within both playback and recording software. Unfortunately, as you know, many website services compromise your original recordings, and broadcasting equipment varies.

My thoughts are that digital playback due to decoding practices can also change the sound of the final mix amongst sources so that, besides eq, compression, expansion, limiting, and whatnot, there is a slew of corresponding factors along with pre-amplification, amplification, and speakers that change the desired result.

I'm going out on a limb here by saying that while digital can have some advantage in reproducing exact copies, the reproduction in playback is a weak link with no standard mature emphasis. While digital equipment and approaches are slowly coming closer together, as soon as they get close to compromise, new theories and advances are adopted. I believe opposite characteristics to be true (or at least closer) with analogue - all things being equal. That is not to say analogue playback cannot be reduced or increased with quality; but, it is a mature technology with less deviation. Mix digital with analogue and you have a formidable witches' cauldron.

That aside, my approach is to use neutral headphones (preferably, sealed to prevent audible leakage) with a large frequency response that does not add emphasis to any tone of bass, midrange, or treble. Neutral speakers are also helpful, but the room acoustics do play a part, and so does your choice of less neutral speakers for an A/B comparison.

You may decide to make different mixes for different playback sources; but, neutral full frequency recording will usually fit the bill as it allows a choice of playback possibilities.

Now here is the key IMHO, knowing how each instrument sounds live when neutral (knowing and feeling the nuances unique to each instrument or sound), and how much to sweeten that sound without too much or too little adjustment. Attention to dynamics with volume and effects is often overlooked. All of this and more is a long term and continuous learned art, and a bit of old, new, and secretive trickery that makes great audio engineers who and what they are. It's in the ears and mind of the individual.

Now that I've confused you, You Tube is a great tool to learn how to mix, and there are magazines to help as well. Just know that marketing will present you with tons of hardware and software solutions. When pros were asked what one tool was that they could not do without it was the compressor, and to support this you might check out the collection of high priced rare compressors that studios cherish. Fortunately, many are available as plug-ins. Learning the compressor, limiter, and EQ will be invaluable. Generally, compression is best recorded as a late(r) addition in the mix. Difficult to explain here, this often helps to reduce a loss of digital information (but, articles elsewhere may inform you best). A simple controlled mix with the correct touch of compression may or may not be the answer.

To summarize, moderation with the tone of your final mix is the key and your friend, especially when you have no control over playback. Hope this helps, mh2000.

FSB
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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:15 pm
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Just want to add that I've seen more than one interview with a producer or engineer where they said the mix was checked in a car. The reason being that they believed most people listened to music in the car more than anywhere else.

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:38 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
Just want to add that I've seen more than one interview with a producer or engineer where they said the mix was checked in a car. The reason being that they believed most people listened to music in the car more than anywhere else.
That practice may continue, and, as I said earlier, digital technology is ever changing, presenting new rules as we speak.

Here is the latest car audio development that is completely digital from source to speakers! 2016 is the release date, and surely other manufacturers are to follow. Apologies for the commercial aspect; but, with the topic and technology I believe there is some justification.



This Hi Def audio means that, to add more confusion and possibilities, mixes will certainly have a great bearing on the end result. Hence, neutral monitoring, a moderate approach, and possibly mild compression would maybe fit the bill. Other choices will apply of course, but I'm betting clipping errors will be highly evident in this scenario.

Whoo boy! Thankfully, there's room for Lo Def. :lol:
Cheers!
FSB

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:23 pm
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Thanks for the advise and points to consider.

Since I'm doing the mastering for what will be a final (self) released CD and digital album (bandcamp), I only get to make one version.

On my end, I try to listen to my master through mediocre headphones and earbuds, a high end stereo and my middle of the road car stereo (Honda Accord). One thing I recognized right away was that it was easier to increase treble for clarity on high end gear than to bring up good sounding bass on crappy gear (my girlfriend has a really crappy car stereo -- one more thing to try to optimize to!).

But my biggest problems is in computer audio playback. On both my home and work PC, the MP3s of a couple of my latest songs sound like they're clipped like crazy, but sound fine when played through Reaper. I've brought the MP3s into Reaper to assess the waveform, and aside from not being as smooth as my uncompressed .wavs, there is no evidence of clipping. Hmmm... really annoying! Even with youtube, when played through my girlfriend's iPhone to car stereo, no clipping... arghhh!

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:10 am
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Just to show you how playback equipment affects the final
product, I remember meeting with a Sony engineer in the days when it was a common saying that a perfect amplifier would be a signal from A to B on a straight wire, meaning as little components as possible from source to playback was the optimum.

Using that as a start, I discovered unexpected filters in a piece of playback hardware that Sony had made, and the question I posed to the engineer was simply if they could do without, which they agreed was possible, why add that filter?

The answer was that Sony decided that if the sound improved by perception, and the listener enjoyed the result, a lot of high end specs took a back seat.

So, that can be a good rule to follow. If it sounds good it is good regardless of the specs.

Hope, that will be of help to those that try to reach that perfect recording. YMMV.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:34 pm
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mh2000 wrote:
the MP3s of a couple of my latest songs sound like they're clipped like crazy, but sound fine when played through Reaper. I've brought the MP3s into Reaper to assess the waveform, and aside from not being as smooth as my uncompressed .wavs, there is no evidence of clipping.

I haven't used Reaper at all so please bear with me ....

How are the MP3's created? Are they exported from within Reaper? Or are they exported in a different format and then converted to MP3? If so, what program is doing the Uncompressed File ==> MP3 conversion?

Sorry more questions than answers. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:21 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
mh2000 wrote:
the MP3s of a couple of my latest songs sound like they're clipped like crazy, but sound fine when played through Reaper. I've brought the MP3s into Reaper to assess the waveform, and aside from not being as smooth as my uncompressed .wavs, there is no evidence of clipping.

I haven't used Reaper at all so please bear with me ....

How are the MP3's created? Are they exported from within Reaper? Or are they exported in a different format and then converted to MP3? If so, what program is doing the Uncompressed File ==> MP3 conversion?

Sorry more questions than answers. :lol:


Reaper, like many other packages, doesn't come with a licensed mp3 encoder, so it uses the open source LAME encoder. People who use Audacity also have to use this encoder and many get good results.

Reaper is a non-destructive DAW so no matter what file type you save as, it has to render for output.

Also, while it sounds likes like my files are clipped, if I bring the mp3's back into Reaper and zoom in on the waveform, I can't see any evidence of actual clipping. Makes me think it may have more to do with additional processing done by Windows Media Player or something.

Thanks!

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:21 am
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I found this on the Net, and it may help. This is a long shot not knowing your setup or if this will even work in your case.

You could be using a different sound driver such as ASIO4ALL for your DAW (Reaper), and your main audio driver which comes with your sound card (which will could also use a different built in EQ).

If this is the case, record with the audio driver with the least latency, and then mix using the main audio driver that came with your computer, since this includes the same EQ that you will usually be listening to.

Different listening amongst rooms, cars, radios, other playback hardware, and so on, will always vary as discussed. However, this may help for some personal standardization.YMMV.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:36 pm
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Fender Strat Brat wrote:
I found this on the Net, and it may help. This is a long shot not knowing your setup or if this will even work in your case.

You could be using a different sound driver such as ASIO4ALL for your DAW (Reaper), and your main audio driver which comes with your sound card (which will could also use a different built in EQ).

If this is the case, record with the audio driver with the least latency, and then mix using the main audio driver that came with your computer, since this includes the same EQ that you will usually be listening to.

Different listening amongst rooms, cars, radios, other playback hardware, and so on, will always vary as discussed. However, this may help for some personal standardization.YMMV.

FSB


Thanks! I will investigate this further. Yup, using the Fender version of ASIO driver for reaper and to go with my Mustang III amp... will have to see how to move between this and whatever is stock with my HP POS computer and Windows 7. My car plays true to the ASIO driver, but my feeling is that most people just listen on the computer. Seems that when Bandcamp converts my uncompressed music for streaming that is plays through their site truer to my originals than does youtube... hmmm... I'm probably worrying about this way too much! :)

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:44 am
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Ok, just following up on this a bit, but one huge problem I've found is that if I render to 24 bit depth instead of 16, all Windows apps mess up... kind of user error, but I'd think if Windows Media Player burns a CD from a 44.1 kHz - 24 bit depth wave file, it should be able to do a decent job! Maybe I'm asking too much. On to the more subtle issues!

But thanks for the help and thoughts! My new CD is sounding great!!!

:)

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:40 pm
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mh2000 wrote:
Ok, just following up on this a bit, but one huge problem I've found is that if I render to 24 bit depth instead of 16, all Windows apps mess up... kind of user error, but I'd think if Windows Media Player burns a CD from a 44.1 kHz - 24 bit depth wave file, it should be able to do a decent job! Maybe I'm asking too much. On to the more subtle issues!

But thanks for the help and thoughts! My new CD is sounding great!!!

:)
Ah, such are the quirks and foibles of digital non-standardization. :roll: Great observations, Mark. Glad to be of help, and to hear that you had a successful great sounding CD. :D Keep on keepin' on.

FSB

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:56 pm
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I have just started doing home recordings and I have ran into the same problem. I have been told by a good friend who has been doing this for several years that he has the same problem as well. Both of us are using Presonus Studio One for our final mixes.
He records direct to Studio One using his laptop. I am using a Zoom R8 portable recorder and I transfer the tracks either by USB or SD card.
I think you guys have provided lots of good info and advice, but being new at this I believe I'm just more confused. :? :lol: I'm sure somewhere down the road it will start making sense to me.
I have accepted the fact that I'll need to do two mixes, one for the computer and one for CD's which I'll test in my truck or my wife's SUV.

mh2000, you mentioned burning your CD's from a wave file. I was under the impression I need to burn them from an mp3 file. Does it matter which? If so which one is best to use?
It would be great if a wave file works just as good or better than an mp3. One less step to make.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:26 pm
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I'm just gonna throw my own $.02 worth in here...please use it only for what it's worth.....

First and foremost, I have to point out that there is a VERY big difference between "mixing" and "mastering". In short, if you're mixing for different environments, then very simply, you are not mastering the tracks. With the plethora of home recording options today, a lot of people over-look this...they seem to think that all good recording requires is simply a copy of Garage Band or Cakewalk...but that's only part of the equation.

Consider this... think about some of the most famous classic albums ever recorded. For example, let's say a couple of albums like Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon", Steely Dan's "Aja" (very notable for the quality of the recording), and heck...even Zeppelin IV. Now think about it...do you have separate version of those albums specifically mixed for playback in your home, car, broadcast and/or walkman? Seriously?? Ok...ok...sure radio stations used to get their own promo copies, but that's beside the point. The point is that it doesn't matter whether you listen to Dark Side of the Moon on a $10,000 audiophile sound system (Nachamichi anyone?) or a digital mp3 player or over the mono speaker of a vintage 57 Chevy Bel Air, it still sounds consistently like Dark Side of the Moon. Ok...sure there's a highly perceptible difference in audio quality between vinyl and CD, however even there, the sound...the actual quality of the recording is pretty consistent.

The simple fact of the matter is that mastering is VERY much an art unto itself....and there's a reason why a really good mastering house charges sooooooo much (and requires 3 quarts of blood along with your first male born child as a security deposit). It's not even so much about "polishing the proverbial turd", although that happens, it's about creating a final product that is consistent from medium to medium. Sure, Hi Def audio along with Youtube compression and such has thrown a monkey wrench or two into the game, however the principle is still the same. Dark Side of the Moon still sounds great whether it's coming thru my old Marantz receiver with my Fisher 3 ways or from Youtube over my Logitech computer speakers.

In the old days, before home recording was really ever considered as serious for anything other than demo tracks, you used to go into a place called "a studio". Most of the good studios not only had good and proper recording equipment (particularly compressors and reference monitors) , they also had people trained as sound engineers...as apposed to the vast majority of OCD monkeys today with pirated copies of Pro Tools. Now here's the rub....again those sound engineers didn't give you a CD to play in your car, a separate CD to play at home on your computer and yet another to provide to a sympathetic local DJ. They mixed with the assumed intent that the product would go to a mastering house. In fact, if you listen to most of those legendary tracks pre-mastering, you'd probably be blown away by how flat and lifeless the tracks are.

Now please don't misunderstand me here...I have NOTHING against home recording and there are a few folks who have indeed created some truly incredible tunes. If nothing else, being the "anti-establishment" sort of individual I am, yea...I rather enjoying giving the big labels the proverbial finger by simply doing it myself. That said, one must also keep a degree of perspective with all of this...as someone once said, "a man must know his limitations".

So long story short, if you're having issues with how your tracks sound on one medium versus another, to me it sounds like either the tracks haven't been mastered...or you simply used a mastering house that just wasn't really qualified to do the work. If you're sitting there trying to do your own tracks (PLEASE tell me you're NOT using computer speakers!), then at the risk of being blunt, do NOT expect them to sound like the work of experienced sound engineers...I've been doing my own recording for over 20 years now and I STILL find mastering to be a rather elusive task that requires a very special touch indeed.


BTW...I too have heard about testing your tracks in a car. It's not so much about being "where people listen to music", it's simply because your average car is a rather hostile audio environment. Aside from the ambient noise (the car engine, the kids playing ball next door, the neighbor's dog barking, the police siren going down the street, etc.,), your average car has a ton of odd shaped surfaces, lots of foam and a fair amount of fabric, glass windows, plastic, metal etc.. In terms of a proper listening environment, your average car really is pretty lousy. Likewise, unless you went out and invested in a Blaupunkt audio system, chances are that your factory Chrysler or GM sound system isn't really audiophile quality either (hey...car speakers are what they are). Don't even get me started on that "Road Thunder" trash...that stuff is pure crap. Either way, the theory is that if you can get your tracks to sound decent over an average car stereo in such a horrible listening environment, then they should, in theory, sound fairly respectable on better equipment as well. The same goes from those old Radio Shark AM transistor radios...when you can get your tracks to sound decent on one of those little suckers, you're probably on to something. If nothing else, both are great for finding phase cancellation issues :-)


Anyways, just my own opinions as always.


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Post subject: Re: Record for all playback?
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:15 pm
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Thanks for posting that info lomitus. Being new at this I appreciate any and all helpful advice. Now that you have explained it, I understand the problem I've been having.
I had read about the difference in mixing and mastering and in a couple of articles it was mentioned if you are just recording demos you can possibly get by without mastering since they are more than likely not going to be played on a wide variety of equipment.....car stereo, computer, mp3 player, etc.....
My main goal is to leave some music behind for my family after I'm gone, so I thought of them being like demos and didn't worry about learning to master my recordings. After reading your post I've thought more about that. More than likely they will be played on a variety of equipment, so mastering my recordings is probably a must.
I have no plans to make CD's for resale or any kind of public distribution.
I also realize my home recordings will never match up to those produced professionally.


Also found this article which some of you might find helpful.......
http://www.studiomastering.net/e/mastering.html

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