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Post subject: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:34 pm
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My Gotoh Bridge and Tail stop I got for my birthday showed up and I installed it this weekend. What a difference it made. I have an Epiphone SG style from China My first electric and I have modified it somewhat.
Since I got it, for the life of me I could not get the intonation on the G string right, there just was not enough space for the saddle to go back any further, so when I tuned it I split the difference and the G was flat and the rest of the frets were sharp, more towards the nut and the closer I got to the 12th fret the more in tune it was. When I played a D chord by the nut using the E,B, and G string it always sounded bad, and I happen to like drop D mode. ( It's tough to re-tune my Am Strat with it's floating bridge so I use this for alternate tuning)
Well now that has all stopped and with my new bridge I can say my intonation is finally solved. Did a complete set up and this beater is better than it ever was and like it so much better now\
It seems to me that when they made these the bridge was off some in there specs
mud
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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:33 pm
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Congrats and happy birthday mud !

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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:48 pm
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I would be interested in knowing to which aspect of the new hardware you attribute the improvement.
I have long been under the impression Gotoh have been supplying Gibson their hardware for decades.

I do feel your pain though. Gibson guitars are IMO more problematic than Fenders finding an acceptable intonation compromise.
I have at times removed the saddle and re-installed it turned 180 degrees in order to find enough travel.
Truth be told I begin to believe there may be something sonically unnatural about a 24.6" scale length. (Gibson's advertised 24.75" actually measures closer to 24.6")
There is that school of thought regarding tuning to A440 vs. A432.
I begin to wonder if there is not some sort of similar phenomenon with scale length.

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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:09 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I have at times removed the saddle and re-installed it turned 180 degrees in order to find enough travel.

yeah, that's pretty much standard practice with Epiphone guitars for that reason.

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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:19 am
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mud wrote:
Since I got it, for the life of me I could not get the intonation on the G string right, there just was not enough space for the saddle to go back any further, so when I tuned it I split the difference and the G was flat and the rest of the frets were sharp, more towards the nut and the closer I got to the 12th fret the more in tune it was. When I played a D chord by the nut using the E,B, and G string it always sounded bad, and I happen to like drop D mode.

If everything is OK now, there's no need to (re)do anything.
But on those "symptoms", my SOP checklist would be nut slot height, string gauge, frets and finger pressure.
Too high nut slots, too thin strings (especially with 24.75" nominal scale and drop tuning), jumbo(ish) frets and/or heavy fingers can cause out-of-tune issues on first few frets, especially on D & G open chords.


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:03 am
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The only Gibson I don't have too much trouble with the G string on is my DC Junior.
A guitar is renown for being hard to intone.

Mud, what is the rest of your set up like mate?
I find Gibsons to be incredibly problematic to get right, as BMW-KTM said. It seems to me that one thing too far off Gibson spec and the whole thing goes to bits. You can't have your action too high, you have to be within these parameters for neck relief, etc.

Here's my DC. Don't think I've ever posted a pic of it here.

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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:37 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Truth be told I begin to believe there may be something sonically unnatural about a 24.6" scale length. (Gibson's advertised 24.75" actually measures closer to 24.6")
There is that school of thought regarding tuning to A440 vs. A432.
I begin to wonder if there is not some sort of similar phenomenon with scale length.

It's not something magic about the scale length, except that it's shorter. Shorter scale length means less tension on a string to produce the same tone, which reflects in the intonation settings. Also, thicker strings need more intonation adjustment. Combine the shorter scale length (= lower tension) with the thicker default strings of Gibson vs Fender (.010 vs .009), and more intonation changes are generally needed.

As for how long the scale length is, that depends on how you define scale length. If you mean production scale length, that's the distance between the nut and the 12th fret multiplied by two.
If you mean the string scale length, the smallest deviation method is to add the spans of the shortest and longest strings, and divide by two.

Because the two differ, an instrument with non-compensated frets will never be in tune over the entire fretboard, no matter how you adjust intonation. The question is how well it is in tune where you need it to be. If you tend to play certain "boxes", you may want to adjust intonation for those instead of the standard 12th fret fretted vs half string harmonic. And err on the side of too low, because you can always sharpen a single string as you play it, but not flatten it.


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:08 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I would be interested in knowing to which aspect of the new hardware you attribute the improvement.
The bridge itself is wider and this allowed me to bring the saddle back further than the stock bridge, so the intonation on the G was never close
I have long been under the impression Gotoh have been supplying Gibson their hardware for decades.

I do feel your pain though. Gibson guitars are IMO more problematic than Fenders finding an acceptable intonation compromise.
I have at times removed the saddle and re-installed it turned 180 degrees in order to find enough travel.
Yeah if you look at the photo's you will see the saddles all go the same way

Truth be told I begin to believe there may be something sonically unnatural about a 24.6" scale length. (Gibson's advertised 24.75" actually measures closer to 24.6")
There is that school of thought regarding tuning to A440 vs. A432.
I begin to wonder if there is not some sort of similar phenomenon with scale length.

mud


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:18 am
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jmattis wrote:
mud wrote:
Since I got it, for the life of me I could not get the intonation on the G string right, there just was not enough space for the saddle to go back any further, so when I tuned it I split the difference and the G was flat and the rest of the frets were sharp, more towards the nut and the closer I got to the 12th fret the more in tune it was. When I played a D chord by the nut using the E,B, and G string it always sounded bad, and I happen to like drop D mode.

If everything is OK now, there's no need to (re)do anything.
But on those "symptoms", my SOP checklist would be nut slot height, string gauge, frets and finger pressure.
As I was looking at it, fret 1 is off 1 cent, fret 2 about .5 cent fret, 3 just about spot on I am thinking nut, first fret measurement was quite a bit off, even when I touch the string as light as possible it is still off
Too high nut slots, too thin strings (especially with 24.75" nominal scale and drop tuning), jumbo(ish) frets and/or heavy fingers can cause out-of-tune issues on first few frets, especially on D & G open chords.
I use 10's on this guitar, but I have been thinking about trying 9's

mud


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:31 am
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nikininja wrote:
The only Gibson I don't have too much trouble with the G string on is my DC Junior.
A guitar is renown for being hard to intone.

Mud, what is the rest of your set up like mate?
Neck Relief = .09, E6= 5/64, E1= 4/64, the nut was high on both sides, can't remember or maybe don't want to, but the guitar is home and I'm at work. That is why I was thinking about 9's maybe they will sit lower in the nut slots
I find Gibsons to be incredibly problematic to get right, as BMW-KTM said. It seems to me that one thing too far off Gibson spec and the whole thing goes to bits. You can't have your action too high, you have to be within these parameters for neck relief, etc.

Here's my DC. Don't think I've ever posted a pic of it here.
Nice Guitar

Image

mud


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:33 am
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Solid Body Love Songs wrote:
Congrats and happy birthday mud !

Thanks
mud


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:18 pm
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mud wrote:
Neck Relief = .09, E6= 5/64, E1= 4/64, the nut was high on both sides, can't remember or maybe don't want to, but the guitar is home and I'm at work. That is why I was thinking about 9's maybe they will sit lower in the nut slots

I hope you mean the relief is .009" :wink:
On the nut; I wouldn't go to a .009 set on a Gibson scale guitar, especially if you use that drop tuning: the thin strings are even more sensitive to finger pressure = out of tune easier. (BTW, the cents you mention aren't totally catastrofic. Modifying arth1's thought: a guitar never plays accurately in tune for every string on every fret.)
It's never a bad idea to use a pro; one setup fee includes checking/adjusting nut slots, and will take you a long way.
But if you want to DIY the nut slots, this may be useful: Ceri's instructions to fix a pre-cut nut


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:32 pm
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jmattis wrote:
mud wrote:
Neck Relief = .09, E6= 5/64, E1= 4/64, the nut was high on both sides, can't remember or maybe don't want to, but the guitar is home and I'm at work. That is why I was thinking about 9's maybe they will sit lower in the nut slots

I hope you mean the relief is .009" :wink:
On the nut; I wouldn't go to a .009 set on a Gibson scale guitar, especially if you use that drop tuning: the thin strings are even more sensitive to finger pressure = out of tune easier. (BTW, the cents you mention aren't totally catastrofic. Modifying arth1's thought: a guitar never plays accurately in tune for every string on every fret.)
It's never a bad idea to use a pro; one setup fee includes checking/adjusting nut slots, and will take you a long way.
But if you want to DIY the nut slots, this may be useful: Ceri's instructions to fix a pre-cut nut


:oops: Yeah .009 misplaced a 0. Was going for .010 but it stopped there and felt OK so I left if, might just give it a little tweak and move it .001 to .010 and see if the first 2 frets change
As far as the nut goes at some point I may decide to mess with it but not right now and I would most definitely use Ceri's instructions to fix a pre-cut nut.
Yes the cent off on the first 2 frets I can live with, before the new bridge the A (2nd fret) on the G string was closer to A# than A, so a half cent off is not as noticeable
mud


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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:51 pm
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Honestly, seriously.
I've cut more than a nut or two. Very precise, shaped nuts.
I can promise you this, the difference between .009 and .015 is minuscule. I invite anyone to do this. Get a set of feeler gauges, go to a guitar shop and check the high E nut slot in 10 guitars using the feeler gauges set to .015".
I've done it a few times and can't recall finding one narrower than that.

It's not imperfection or tardiness. It's down to the fact that the things are cut by hand. Controlling side to side waver of a .009" file to a tolerance of less that .006" would be ridiculously difficult.

The width of the slot isn't really that important. Unless you're using something the size of a G string in the high E slot. You'll be hitting the floor of the slot.
The shape of the slot floor is much more important. Having a nice gentle taper down to the headstock end. Causing a nice sharp break point at the front of the string slot.

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Post subject: Re: New Bridge and Tailstop
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:40 pm
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:D Thank you very much jmattis for the link and say hi to Ceri from me

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