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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:41 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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people who consider tube amps as more "reliable" are using flawed logic. Yes, when you own a $1200 amp and it needs service for a couple hundred bucks every few years, you pay it, but most solid state amps cost a fraction of the tube amps and last many years before failing.

Mustang III amp would be my replacement choice... FWIW

But other than me just shooting off my mouth about my opinion, let's back up a second... are you positive it's the amp and not your guitar? My gf thought her Fender XD was going south with a similar problem, but we've chased it down to a intermittent switch or plug problem with her Les Paul... in general, it's easy to make incorrect assumptions about intermittent failures.

Good luck!

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:19 am
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mh2000 wrote:
most solid state amps cost a fraction of the tube amps and last many years before failing.


To give an example of this ....

My Mustang III was purchased in March of 2012. It was around $300. So since I've had it for 4 years without needing any repairs, it cost me around $75/year so far. If it makes it another year, that goes down to $60 per year.

Now let's do the math with a Fender Blues Jr. III

March 2012
Initial investment: around $550
Spare set of tubes to bring to gigs: let's say around $50 (quick Amazon.com search)
New set of tubes (basic maintenance) March 2014: around $50
New set of tubes (basic maintenance) March 2016: around $50
Total cost of ownership for 4 years: $700
Cost per year: $175
.....For a 15 watt amp.

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:45 am
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I don't think anyone here questions that there is possibly a favorable cost/benefit ratio to some SS Amps for some musicians.

What was sought here was advice on a failed SS Amp.

In the event that said failure was caused by a fault in the amp (it was assumed, at least by me, that the OP had already ruled out the guitar and it's wiring as a possibility prior to posting), the advice proffered was that it's not really worth trying to repair the amp because the cost of doing so rivaled or exceeded simply replacing the amp altogether.

SS Amps have their place. They're less expensive to buy and offer performance near the analogue tube amps they're designed to emulate. There's not much more to be said of them.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:20 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
SS Amps have their place. They're less expensive to buy and offer performance near the analogue tube amps they're designed to emulate. There's not much more to be said of them.


Well, yes, there is. Like how not all SS amp are digital modelling amps emulating tube amps. Some don't emulate anything, and are fully analog. The one the OP talked about here is a digital modelling amp, sure, but not all are.
A Roland JC-120 or high gain Randall head is not to be dismissed as just emulating tubes. They aren't, and that's their strength, and why many top artists actually use them. They don't use G-DECs or Mustangs, though :p


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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:15 am
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mh2000 wrote:
people who consider tube amps as more "reliable" are using flawed logic. Yes, when you own a $1200 amp and it needs service for a couple hundred bucks every few years, you pay it, but most solid state amps cost a fraction of the tube amps and last many years before failing.

I've heard and seen figures such as this before, and this is not my experience at all.

I have owned four tube amps in the 25+ years I've been playing (as well as having access to/use of a dozen others, which belonged to friends or bandmate).
(Note: some of these anecdotes are from a decade or two ago, so obviously the prices are lower than today).

1972 Bassman Ten. Silverface/master volume. That thing was a tank...it was tougher than leather-wrapped nails. It was VERY used when I bought it for $350 in 1989, but it sounded good, so I just started playing on it, with no thought of repairing or replacing anything...I used it either paired with my Vibroverb (the bands I played with back then were LOUD and we rarely had the opportunity to mic our amps) or as a makeshift PA system at jam sessions, or a keyboard amp, or (lo and behold) a bass amp (what it was nominally designed for!). After nine years, I finally had to re-tube it and replace a capacitor (~$250). The tech who did the work for me (I went ahead and asked him to re-cap the whole thing) noted that it had the original tubes from the factory...this was in 1999, so the tubes were 27 years old...and it had been in semi-constant use for the past 9 years.
I sold it for more than I paid for it, including the cap and tube job. The guy I sold it to still uses it at his weekly gig (thirteen years later), and to my knowledge has never had any major trouble with it. (Sometimes I wish I had it back, until I remember how much that thing weighed).
Cost per year: nothing.

1970's silverface/master volume Twin Reverb, that I overpaid ~$475 (in 1990 or 1991?). Adding the initial cost of the amp, as well as re-tubing and re-biasing it (it was used and abused by the previous owner), I had around $675 (total, including the cost of the amp) in it. I tried and tried, but it just didn't "fit" my style, so I sold it rather quickly...and I sold it at a small profit ($725). Cost per year: nothing.

Mid-70's Fender Champ. Fun little bedroom/recording amp...bought it for ~$150, re-tubed it, and replaced the power tube socket when it fritzed out. Sold it, and broke even.
Cost per year: nothing.

1992 Fender '63-reissue Vibroverb. Bought it new for $500, replaced speakers once and tubes once. Owned it for 23+ years now (over half of that was heavy use), and all told, I have less than $800 bucks in it...not counting the Fender cover I bought for it or the sticker with my band's logo I put on the side...
Cost per year: $35...and it's still running!
AND...if it failed tomorrow, I could get it repaired, unlike a disposable digital amp.

Now, I've never toured heavily, and I have definitely babied my Vibroverb...maybe I've been fortunate and never gotten a "lemon".
I have semi-abused my amps in one regard--they've all been transported and played for hours at a time, in Texas heat and Oklahoma blizzards, indoors and outdoors, (and in the case of the Bassman Ten, it was often transported lying on it's back, which may or may not be good for it)...but I've never experienced the phenomenon of the "delicate, expensive to operate and maintain" tube amp.

I think that's a phenomenon that pertains to equipment that was either poorly made in the first place (Hot Rod series), or equipment that was designed to be used in-studio, not on the road/in a bar/banged around.

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:39 am
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By the same token, I have never had any failure with any solid state amp. And that includes my Mustang III. They have all been bulletproof and (unlike tube amps) do not require periodic maintenance. They just work.

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:46 am
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
1992 Fender '63-reissue Vibroverb. Bought it new for $500

that's great, but it's not 1992 anymore so if you buy one now, the math won't work out the same:

Fender '63 Vibroverb Reissue 1990s

Transaction History
UsedNew
Date Condition Asking Final
1/31/2016 Very Good $999.00 $999.00
12/22/2015 Excellent $949.00 $1,000.00
12/18/2015 Excellent $1,750.00 $1,450.00
12/5/2015 Excellent $950.00 $875.00
12/1/2015 Very Good $1,200.00 $950.00
11/26/2015 Good $699.00 $600.00
11/11/2015 Good $725.00 $650.00
10/15/2015 Mint $1,300.00 $1,300.00
9/9/2015 Excellent $1,000.00 $970.59
9/9/2015 Excellent $1,000.00 $1,000.00

And one set of tubes in 23 years? I don't think you can call that 'typical'.

All the others it seems you sold before they were due to have a tube changeout, so I guess you passed that expense on to the buyers.

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:48 am
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arth1 wrote:
They don't use G-DECs or Mustangs, though :p

What about Line 6?

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:58 am
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
...the phenomenon of the "delicate, expensive to operate and maintain" tube amp.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love that descriptive.

I guess the indisputable FACT that most if not all of the vacuum tubes used in common guitar amps were designed for military use (many of those applications including combat aircraft and missiles where shocks, vibrations, temperature extremes, and high-G maneuvers are routinely atypical) seems to be conveniently ignored by the bozos who parrot such tripe when proffering the superiority of their positions.

"Kahn......I'm laughing at the 'superior' intellect."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:06 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
bozos who parrot such tripe

ahh well, when things degrade to name calling, I move on. :roll: Wow Arjay, I thought you were more mature than that. I guess not.

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:24 am
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arth1 wrote:
Lightnin MN wrote:
SS Amps have their place. They're less expensive to buy and offer performance near the analogue tube amps they're designed to emulate. There's not much more to be said of them.


Well, yes, there is. Like how not all SS amp are digital modelling amps emulating tube amps. Some don't emulate anything, and are fully analog. The one the OP talked about here is a digital modelling amp, sure, but not all are.
A Roland JC-120 or high gain Randall head is not to be dismissed as just emulating tubes. They aren't, and that's their strength, and why many top artists actually use them. They don't use G-DECs or Mustangs, though :p

Yep my old Marshall MG250DFX was a solid state non modeling amp. It was as loud as a 50 watt tube amp, and sounded quite good with tons of overhead. Never went past halfway on live gigs. Great SS amp and can be found for cheap.

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:30 am
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I think that some of the concerns people have with digital amps is that Murphy's law means that when they break down, it will be when you need it and can't take the time to go to a store to buy a new one, nor send it in for "repair" (in reality, replacement, cause Fender doesn't know how to fix it either).

With a tube amp, what fails is likely just a tube or fuse, which can be replaced on the spot, with minutes of downtime (wear gloves and make sure you're not grounded if handling an amp that's just been turned off, though!)
With a tube amp or old school analog solid state amp, there are also repairs that can be done within an hour with a multimeter and soldering iron, for those that have some basic skills.
With a digital amp, you're likely dead out of the water. No user serviceable parts inside. Unless you see that a cap has blown, there's no way you're even going to find out what's wrong with it, and certainly not repair it.

The price of the amp itself isn't the main concern here. Sure, you can buy two identical digital amps and have one as a standby, I guess. But then you still have to make sure they're configured identically, which will be more than just seeing whether the knobs align.


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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:14 am
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arth1 wrote:
I think that some of the concerns people have with digital amps is that Murphy's law means that when they break down, it will be when you need it and can't take the time to go to a store to buy a new one, nor send it in for "repair" (in reality, replacement, cause Fender doesn't know how to fix it either).

With a tube amp, what fails is likely just a tube or fuse, which can be replaced on the spot, with minutes of downtime (wear gloves and make sure you're not grounded if handling an amp that's just been turned off, though!)
With a tube amp or old school analog solid state amp, there are also repairs that can be done within an hour with a multimeter and soldering iron, for those that have some basic skills.
With a digital amp, you're likely dead out of the water. No user serviceable parts inside. Unless you see that a cap has blown, there's no way you're even going to find out what's wrong with it, and certainly not repair it.

The price of the amp itself isn't the main concern here. Sure, you can buy two identical digital amps and have one as a standby, I guess. But then you still have to make sure they're configured identically, which will be more than just seeing whether the knobs align.


If you save your preferred configurations on a computer or even your Android phone, you can just grab a new Mustang amp, load your presets and have the exact same configuration in a matter of minutes!

Depending on where you live, there might not even be a place to test your tubes! I know, because my girlfriend thinks that her Fender XD is acting flakey and wanted me to test her tubes. None of the local music stores have a tube tester! The one surplus electronics store that has an antique tube tester says it "only works when it wants to." The music stores have suggested she spend $500 for the Orange tube tester. Crap! Add that cost to the cost of the amp.

Anyway, SS modeling amps have their place and strengths. I think people romanticize old technology that *requires* service as being preferable to new technology that rarely needs any service at all.

When I was a kid, people used to have TV repairmen coming to their house once or twice a year, now, you can't fix a TV, but most last 10+ years with no service at all. How many people want to go back to TVs that require constant service? Me for one, don't.

As for amps, if I had the cash, I'd really like to buy a Fender '65 Twin (for $1,299 and probably throw in the $500 Orange tube tester so I could do the service/testing myself... but that's getting pretty close to $2000 when you add tax! Powerball, where are you???).

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:28 am
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strings10927 wrote:
Screamin Armadillo wrote:
1992 Fender '63-reissue Vibroverb. Bought it new for $500

that's great, but it's not 1992 anymore so if you buy one now, the math won't work out the same:

Fender '63 Vibroverb Reissue 1990s

Transaction History
UsedNew
Date Condition Asking Final
1/31/2016 Very Good $999.00 $999.00
12/22/2015 Excellent $949.00 $1,000.00
12/18/2015 Excellent $1,750.00 $1,450.00
12/5/2015 Excellent $950.00 $875.00
12/1/2015 Very Good $1,200.00 $950.00
11/26/2015 Good $699.00 $600.00
11/11/2015 Good $725.00 $650.00
10/15/2015 Mint $1,300.00 $1,300.00
9/9/2015 Excellent $1,000.00 $970.59
9/9/2015 Excellent $1,000.00 $1,000.00

Yeah, because a well-regarded, well-made, 20-26 year old amp that is no longer in production would NEVER go up in value...and since the original MSRP was $900, these prices are not out of line.

A modern Fender '68 Custom Vibrolux Reverb (similar amp to mine in wattage, speaker configuration, size and effects) is around $1200.00 By one calculation, an item that cost $900.00 in 1992 should cost $1543.00 today...so Fender is actually offering a comparable item at ~$340.00 less than it should be.

Also, how much do you think a Mustang or G-DEC will be worth in 20+ years? (IF it's still working!)

Quote:
And one set of tubes in 23 years? I don't think you can call that 'typical'.

...and I never said it was.
In fact, I stated I was fortunate...however, I think Arjay/Retroverbial could probably speak to the typical (and atypical) lifespan of vacuum tubes, so I ask him to do so.

Quote:
All the others it seems you sold before they were due to have a tube changeout, so I guess you passed that expense on to the buyers.

You might read my post again...each time, I replaced the tubes when necessary, before I sold the amp. Also, each of the amps were electronically/mechanically sound when I sold the amp; I didn't wittingly pass on any problem to the buyer...and as I stated about the one amp I've been able to keep track of (the Bassman Ten), it's still used regularly by a gigging musician (over a decade later!).

Your math and your suppositions don't add up, sir.

I said this before, and I'll say it again...what ever works for you, go for it.
If you like and use a piece of gear that I would not consider useful in my rig, go for it.
If you think I'm wrong, ok...but disprove it with facts or anecdotal evidence (which is all I have presented in my argument).

Don't make crap up or take my words out of context.

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Post subject: Re: amp cuts off
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:42 am
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mh2000 wrote:
If you save your preferred configurations on a computer or even your Android phone, you can just grab a new Mustang amp, load your presets and have the exact same configuration in a matter of minutes!


A liftetime of experience has taught me that Mr. If You never survives a meeting with Mr. Murphy.


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