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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:12 am
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arth1 wrote:
For me, it's not about who pays (the customer pays anyhow, up front or later), but whether it's built to last.


+1000

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:17 pm
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With regard to amps, and excluding high-end-hand-made-point-to-point models, is anything coming off an assembly line today - by any company - "built to last"?

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:56 pm
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Bluer Monkey wrote:
With regard to amps, and excluding high-end-hand-made-point-to-point models, is anything coming off an assembly line today - by any company - "built to last"?

Zippo lighters, Victorinox knives, Omega watches, Grundig radios, Grado headphones and cartridges, Thorens turntables, Cherry keyboards, Craftsman tools, Pyrex glass, Dr. Marten boots...

There are also stores like Hammacher Schlemmer that sell almost everything with a lifetime warranty, but only some of their products really live up to that - it's more that they gamble on people not returning broken goods.


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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:48 am
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If I Were A Fender CEO For A Day . . . Hmmm?!

A lot of good points here. But, knowing that (YMMV), I like much of what Fender has to offer, and I know that more than one musician of yesteryear has found some recent quality improvements while also finding the opposite. There are new axes in the hands of seasoned old dudes (and ladies), and old axes in the hands of youngsters, and everything in between. Nice stock paint jobs, fake and real road worn blemishes, and beautiful custom artwork. Modded amps and guitars new and old. Obviously, one size does not fit all.

So I would turn to these few things as CEO:

1) Make quality amps that look good and sound good with that unique Fender sound with the spring reverb of my youth. Make sure it has that red jewel power light. :shock: Okay, I know it's there in tube form . . . but, make it so I don't need a two wheel dolly at my age. Separate head amp and twin cab would make me happy with weight reduction. In the spirit of Fender guitars' flexibility, maybe the head amp and twin cab could be modular two pieces (a total of three or four pieces)? In the audiophile world modular upgrades have been known to start small and to build up as budget allows. Although doubtful, this might be a convenient way to build an affordable quality system for amplification (and speakers). I wouldn't rule out Solid State totally though as improvements are available and improving as we speak. Besides, we toss our expensive toys (cars, etc,) for new ones all the time. Affordable amps are just that - affordable. IMHO.

2) Make American Standard and American Deluxe Strats with an optional large headstock. Better still, add to that an option for a matching colour headstock.

3) Make a major effort to obtain and use Brazilian rosewood instead of a look alike. Use ebony or black stain for fretboards that complement body finishes.

4) Coordinate the pickup cover colours to match each other and cleanup the humbucker twin pups appearance in a combo cover or ? Oh, and make sure the volume of the HB pups complement the set.

5) Limit the lineup to important and desirable vintage years (alternate bi-yearly need be) and maybe, just maybe, we could afford to see the return of more colours in the limited lineup.

6) With Screamin Armadillo's earlier Fender/Squire mention of branding differences in mind, by limiting and changing the Fender lineup, Squires' lineup could benefit by inheriting some of Fender's loss in choice. If Squire were to improve sales at that point it may offset costs in the Fender line. Not knowing the financial structure this is only an assumption. It would, perhaps, be an advantage to both Fender and Squire? Priced correctly it may give some concern to the competition,

Finally, thanks to those great folks on the line who do their best to keep Fender in our hands, our home, our hearts, and on stage regardless of who the CEO is. :wink:

FSB

NB: There are many of us who would love to have an old Fender amp or guitar; however, if we all did the new ones would likely be on our list as well. :D

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:10 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
Screamin Armadillo wrote:
But in the name of everything Good and Proper, don't put out a sad-sounding, toy-effect-laden, poorly built crap with Fender's name on it.

Fender is not Line 6.
Fender should not stoop to play in Line 6's arena.
Fender is Fender, and should produce amplifiers that do what Fender amps do.
And that's why you'll never sit in that chair. I don't disagree that building some models up to old specs and charging an arm and a leg for them is a good idea. Hell, they might sell dozens of amps at that price point.

But you obviously do not have an eye for innovation. Remember, this is what a mobile phone used to look like. Just because it wasn't practical in the 80's doesn't mean it's a bad idea now.


I have nothing against innovation, and I love the idea of new technology... As long as that technology works as advertised.

The cell phone referenced above was expensive, impractical and could not be upgraded or even repaired...unlike the smart phones today, which can be repaired and (in some cases) have upgraded software and/or memory.

While smart phones aren't cheap, they are relatively (relative to the ridiculous devices from the 80's and 90's) cheap to buy and operate...and with nationwide long distance plans, it makes use of the current devices more cost effective as well.

What amplifier can claim that?
Name one brand, model, type or manufacturer that works better than the basic old tube amp whose design in based in the 1960's?

I'm not saying that cheap, disposable digital amps have no place in the world...they're good learning tools for kids and beginners. But if Fender wants to remain on top of the heap, they need to built like a boutique company, and use their volume buying and manufacturing facilities to drive the price downward.

...and when (or if) new technology that matches what Arjay and I are touting comes onto the scene, THEN embrace it whole-heartedly...use your brand equity to join the new technology to your re-established stellar reputation.

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:19 am
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arth1 wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
Contingent upon them actually making some stuff that's good -- that is to say, equaling or surpassing the legendary benchmark of what they built in the past in terms of quality, durability, and reliability. Absent those vital attributes, they're back to the Dollar General Store.

Unfortunately, they also have to compete on price.

Some of what they've done lately seems quite questionable to me, like the new Bassbreakers. If I want a Bluesbreaker or Vox, I'm going to buy a Bluesbreaker or Vox, no? In my opinion, it's a bit like if Fender came out with an archtop Los Pablo...

The exception, maybe, being the Bassbreaker 18/30, which isn't like the others, but seems to have Fender heritage, using the circuitry from a clean Blackface Deluxe and a dirty Brown Deluxe in the same head. Maybe that's a good amp for people who want two distinct Fender sounds without carrying two amps. For $850 in a cab with two Vintage Celestions, it seems like a very competitive price.
But it's way too early to say anything about quality. I won't hold that they're built in MX against them, but what's the components and trace like - will I able to maintain it? If I knew it was old school quality, I'd order one today. I don't, so I don't.

I had the opportunity to play through the 7-watt version (Bassbreaker 007, I think it was called?) anyway...I was very impressed at first blush. I didn't get to play through it for very long, but it was what I expect out of a good small amp, tonally.
Rich and full, sounded bigger than its size...
It didn't sound extremely "Fender-y," but no matter...it was a good-to-great sounding and a reasonable price. Good controls/control panel. Sharp looks.

As you said, only time will tell about reliability and durability, but the first glance at this series is good.

I would have liked to have a similarly sized amp with the circuit built around a 6V6 tube, kinda an updated Champ. I understand this series is basically Fender's answer to early British designs (which were take-offs of the Bassman and other Fender mainstays), but a good, reasonably priced Champ needs to be in the lineup.

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:56 am
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
I had the opportunity to play through the 7-watt version (Bassbreaker 007, I think it was called?) anyway...I was very impressed at first blush. I didn't get to play through it for very long, but it was what I expect out of a good small amp, tonally.
Rich and full, sounded bigger than its size...
It didn't sound extremely "Fender-y," but no matter...it was a good-to-great sounding and a reasonable price. Good controls/control panel. Sharp looks.


The 007, 15 and 45 seem very different from the 18/30 except in looks. From what I can tell from online reviews, they basically mimic what they were designed to look like - a Marshall Bluesbreaker.
Can't fault that look, but it's not a Fender look. But it's also a fraction of the price.

The 18/30, on the other hand, uses the preamp circuitry of two early Fender Deluxe amps, with the power stage using four EL-84 tubes in class A instead of two 6V6s and a rectifier. From what I have heard online, it sounds far more like a Fender than most modern Fenders do, and I wonder why it's lumped together with the Bassbreakers. And what's wrong with it since it only costs $850.


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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:09 pm
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
I'm not saying that cheap, disposable digital amps have no place in the world...they're good learning tools for kids and beginners.

Kids and beginners? SA, you left one significant group of users out of that. Those of us who are NOT kids and most definitely NOT beginners, but even at the ripe old age of :::cough::: :::cough::: :::cough::: STILL can't afford to drop $1600 on what you consider a "proper" amp. Or at least in my case, other things take higher priority.

If you find yourself in that group, you may be surprised by what's available at a lower price point. I don't suppose you've ever owned one of these "sad-sounding, toy-effect-laden, poorly built crap" amps. I have been playing one for the last 4 years so I guess I might know a little more about it.

The Fender Mustang series is NOT like Line 6 IMO. All I can say is they sound WAY better to my ears. With the right preset, they sound like a regular amp. And they take pedals well. I've played both; they're not the same thing.

I come from a computer background, so I'm not afraid of a learning curve with a device. I RTFM. And that's why I can get great sounds out of my amp, while you might walk up, spin the preset dial, and declare it a piece of poop.

In other words, it's a fantastic example of Y.M.M.V.

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:32 pm
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strings10927 wrote:
Screamin Armadillo wrote:
I'm not saying that cheap, disposable digital amps have no place in the world...they're good learning tools for kids and beginners.

Kids and beginners? SA, you left one significant group of users out of that. Those of us who are NOT kids and most definitely NOT beginners, but even at the ripe old age of :::cough::: :::cough::: :::cough::: STILL can't afford to drop $1600 on what you consider a "proper" amp. Or at least in my case, other things take higher priority.

If you find yourself in that group, you may be surprised by what's available at a lower price point. I don't suppose you've ever owned one of these "sad-sounding, toy-effect-laden, poorly built crap" amps. I have been playing one for the last 4 years so I guess I might know a little more about it.

The Fender Mustang series is NOT like Line 6 IMO. All I can say is they sound WAY better to my ears. With the right preset, they sound like a regular amp. And they take pedals well. I've played both; they're not the same thing.

I come from a computer background, so I'm not afraid of a learning curve with a device. I RTFM. And that's why I can get great sounds out of my amp, while you might walk up, spin the preset dial, and declare it a piece of poop.

In other words, it's a fantastic example of Y.M.M.V.

Perhaps I was too exclusive in stating who would use the Mustang series of amps (and the G-DECs and Cyber-series of yore)...yes, there are players outside of that demographic that would welcome a reasonably priced device that has more than one or two personalities/models/whatever they're labelled...and I won't criticize that decision, whether it be based on financial situation or whatever.

I'm not a gear snob--I own (and play) a Pignose amp, a solid-state Gibson G-20 (my first amp) and several import (non-USA-made) guitars and basses (in fact, my main guitar is an hecho-en-Mexico Telecaster). I won't discount gear that's not in the"Holy Grail" category or look down my nose at someone else's rig (unless they're playing a Tregan guitar, and then they deserve ridicule...just kidding...maybe...).

I understand the market for reasonably priced gear, because, as the father of a teenager, I no longer have the budget for high-end instruments and amps. My last purchase was a Fender Modern Player Thinline Deluxe Telecaster (made in China)...and I had to get a used one...by trading in some old mics and pedals and a cheap guitar I had picked up for nothing. I understand the word "broke."

If I had to replace my amp, I would not be able to afford something as nice (or powerful) as my current rig. I understand.

The co-guitarist in a little pickup band I've been playing with uses a Frontman 100...and the amp sounds good. It's not as dynamic or rich as my '63-reissue Vibroverb, but it works for her and her needs. It's a good, reasonably priced amp that can be used for a gig (and she does)...and I enjoyed playing through it at a recent rehearsal.

I am not a gear snob.

But show me one Cyber Twin that was gigged with on a regular basis that still works...and that was gonna be the "Next Big Thing."

Show me a gigging musician that uses a G-DEC (or for that matter, a Mustang amp) to play gigs on a regular basis. It doesn't happen, because they're practice tools...they're bedroom amps...they're amateur toys, overall, and their quality/durability is suspect at best.

By contrast, I know several pro/semi-pro/regular-gigging amateur players who use an old Princeton or Champ (which were student/practice amps) amps mic'd up to play gigs...my cousin (Lincoln Durham) currently uses a pair of Musicmaster Bass amps to tour with...Because those amps (as cheap and as plain and as simple as they were back in the day), were made to last and sound good for a long period of time, as well as to be repairable when they quit working or sounding good.

I have no problem with many/most of the products Fender is manufacturing, as far as sound quality, etc. I have a HUGE problem with their durability and roadworthiness.

Oh, and as far as my technical ability; I repair and program medical devices that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I've done so for the last 19 years or so...I can "dial in" a good sound from anything... If there's a good sound to be dialed in.

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:47 pm
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One problem we old codgers can come up against with using a forum such as this to express our frustration with the current state of Fender amps is that it is a written (typed) format where tone of voice, body language and facial expression are not present to aid in communicating our thoughts. There's also a time lag inherent in the conversation and often a desire for brevity and economy of verbiage. Both can easily lead to small misunderstandings. I've seen discussions like this sour suddenly because there are always some who don't feel the same frustration with the amps and they may be more likely to accept the current state as it is and these people can get their noses bent out of shape pretty easily sometimes when the folks who long for better gear speak up. It comes from a sense that there is a perceived implication that someone else has not made the best choice. I am thankful that even though I suspect we've been gently brushing up against just such a scenario we've not actually crossed the line. That's one of the reasons I prefer this forum to the many other alternatives out there. Most folks here are fairly civil. Thank you for that, friends.

I would like to offer a thought for all concerned parties.
Discussions like this are much like politics. Both sides usually have some valid points to make and even though valid points "should" lead to enlightenment, the fact that they come from differing sides can lead to ever increasing polarization. I think Fender have adequately addressed the needs of the multitudes and continue to do so on an ongoing basis but I also think it is fairly clear there is a contingent amoung us whom have not been so addressed. From my perspective, that is all I believe we codgers are trying to say. Some of us feel as though we've been forgotten and/or ignored. Our dissatisfaction may not lead to very much of an impact on the overall profitability of a company like Fender but I think there must be room somewhere within the company for a smaller line of products with higher entry fees aimed at keeping us just as happy as the multitudes.

(Be thankful I went back and edited that last sentence. I initially typed out the words, "Philistine masses".)
:lol:

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:37 pm
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SKcoppertele wrote:
Try and Push for a 10 watt amp with two channels (dirty and clean) and an effects loop, preferably as a head. Seriously, why doesn't anybody make smaller amps with the cool and very useful features of larger amps? I think Fender would make a ton, then again, I know nothing about business.

Not as a head, but combos, Fender had the Pawn Shop amp series - Excelsior, Ramparte and Vaporizer that were aimed at that segment. They didn't last long before they were discontinued.
For heads, the Super Champ X2 15W head is probably the closest you can get, but it doesn't have an effects loop.

But yeah, the "spouse friendly" segment could be better. Marshall has the JVM-1H, which is 1W/0.1W (switchable), with two channels and an effects loop. If too expensive, Buggerall has a 5W that's much cheaper (but it isn't a JVM made in England either).


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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:38 pm
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SKcoppertele wrote:
Try and Push for a 10 watt amp with two channels (dirty and clean) and an effects loop, preferably as a head. Seriously, why doesn't anybody make smaller amps with the cool and very useful features of larger amps? I think Fender would make a ton, then again, I know nothing about business. :lol:

Cool idea...

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:57 am
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SKcoppertele wrote:
Try and Push for a 10 watt amp with two channels (dirty and clean) and an effects loop, preferably as a head. Seriously, why doesn't anybody make smaller amps with the cool and very useful features of larger amps? I think Fender would make a ton, then again, I know nothing about business. :lol:
I think you may be on to something there, SKcoppertele. I'll run that by the head of the Amp Division when I become CEO for a day. :-)

I've seen variable output switches on several amps (eg. Vox, Messa Boogie) but not on any Fender tube amps. Would it be possible - or rather feasible - to have a variable output selector switch on say a HRD such that we can choose between 40W, 20W, 10W, 5W? My hunch is that there must be a trade off otherwise why wouldn't all tube amps have this.

Cheers!
BM

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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:24 am
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Screamin Armadillo wrote:
Show me a gigging musician that uses a G-DEC (or for that matter, a Mustang amp) to play gigs on a regular basis. It doesn't happen, because they're practice tools...they're bedroom amps...they're amateur toys, overall, and their quality/durability is suspect at best.

ummmmm .... SA, I am a gigging musician that uses a Mustang III to play gigs on a regular basis. And as far as durability, let me tell you a little story.

Last year, my band opened for a well known group that was successful in the 50's and 60's. At this particular gig, we were told to bring our own amps. So I set my "amateur toy" Mustang III up on my angled amp stand, ran the sound check, and then went out to the lobby to meet some people.

Now, one of the singers from the headlining act has problems with his knees. He should probably be in a wheelchair or a walker. But I guess he just doesn't want to bring a walker or wheelchair on stage, so he hobbles along with his straight cane holding on to various things for support. Well, I guess he lost his balance and grabbed onto my amp for support. But my little angled amp stand isn't designed to be a grab bar. Long-story-short, the amp went tumbling off the stand onto the stage.

So you know what I did? I set it back up, verified that it was still working just fine, and played the show. No issues. The same amp has been slammed with a mic stand by a musical director (left a nice ding) and been in and out of my trunk/up and down my stairs plenty. Zero issues.

Now.... had it been a TUBE AMP that fell off a stand, there's a possibility a tube could have shattered when it fell. So I guess it's good to go out and buy a whole second set of tubes ($100+?) and always have them at gigs, right? And you'd better test those tubes often, cuz they'll surely bounce around on the way to and from gigs. Sounds like a big expensive pain to me. That's why I'm glad Fender offers more than one option, and I wouldn't want anyone to change that.

I came for the saving, and stayed for the tone. 8)
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Post subject: Re: If you were a Fender CEO for a day ...
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:39 am
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Bluer Monkey wrote:
I've seen variable output switches on several amps (eg. Vox, Messa Boogie) but not on any Fender tube amps. Would it be possible - or rather feasible - to have a variable output selector switch on say a HRD such that we can choose between 40W, 20W, 10W, 5W? My hunch is that there must be a trade off otherwise why wouldn't all tube amps have this.

Well, power scaling does imply extra circuitry, which adds to the manufacturing complexity and costs.
For single-ended class A amps, you also can't really implement it other than as a load sink after the amp, because these amps run at full all the time. You can achieve some of the same goals by adjusting the pre-amp, but it won't reduce the wattage.

Even for class AB, power scaling is normally not done to decrease the loudness of the amp, but to get the harmonic tube breakup at a lower volume.
In your example, with 40W, 20W, 10W, 5W, there would only be a 12 dB difference from the highest to the lowest wattage setting. If the amp can do 110 dB at the highest setting, it can still do 98 dB at the lowest.
But you would get the harmonic break-up at a lower volume, which might be desirable.

The 1W Marshall I mentioned above can still be plenty loud. Not a good amp for filling a big room with clean, though.


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