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Post subject: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:04 pm
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Hi guys, I'm new to the forum.

I'm a guitarist who is considering outfitting a dual P BC Rich. I've tried the Original Precision Bass Pickup and I really like it.

However, there are also the Pure Vintage 58s, the Pure Vintage 63, and the Custom Shop 62s.

Could anyone tell me the approximate differences among all these pickups? I understand that the 60s models will have slightly more output than the 50s models.

They all seem to have similar specs with Alnico V magnets. The only difference is the shellac potting on the Pure Vintage models. The Original Precision Bass pickups also have those rather unusual beveled pole pieces.

As far as the difference between the Original p and the Custom Shop 62, based on the basses they come on, the tonal difference would come down to the difference between the American Vintage series and the American Standard series.

Thanks.


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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:47 pm
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I own a recent (about 1 year old) American Precision, and it has the '62 CS pickup.

I also just swapped out the stock pickup in my Mexican Precision (also about a year old) for a Pure Vintage '63.

The strings on both instruments are Rotosound roundwounds that have aged more or less the same, i.e. have lost about the same amount of brightness.

To my ears, I hear no difference at all between the '62 CS and the PV '63. Both have that solid, tight bass that runs seamlessly into the midrange. If there are differences that I'm not hearing, I guarantee you the slightest turn of a tone control somewhere in the signal chain would render them inaudible. We're well into hair-splitting range here, especially when you take real-world factors into account.

For the folks with Mexican Precisions who are thinking of doing the same swap, this will totally change the sound of your instrument into something a lot more old-school sounding. The stock Mexican Precision pickup is built with a bar magnet under (I'm assuming unmagnetized) pole pieces, while the PV '63 is built with magnetized pole pieces and no bar magnet. So, we're talking a whole different method of construction, with different materials. And boy, you can hear it.

Whether the Mexican Precision's two bar magnets are ceramic or otherwise, I have no idea. The stock pickup does have that lean, "ceramic sound," though, where there is bass, and there are mids (relatively strong), and there is treble (also relatively strong), but there seems to be little cohesiveness among those ranges. In other words, the ranges are there, but they don't sound like a unified whole. That sort of behavior is something I've always associated with ceramic magnets from personal experience with other P-style pickups going way back.

Windings on the PV '63 and the stock Mexican P are totally different. The PV '63 resistance spec is 12 Kohms. Mine came through at 11.5. The stock pickup measured 4.5 Kohms. (Yes, both pickups were out of circuit when measured.) I don't know if that 4.5 K figure is typical or there were shorted windings in either or both packs. Maybe someone else will know what the resistance spec is for a Mexican P pickup.

Here comes the bucket of cold water. You can EQ the stock pickup to sound fantastic, and I've been doing that for months, so a valid question would be, "What's the point, then." I can think of only one justifiable reason, apart from personal preference. Let's say you're working with a sound man who demands you run straight to the board rather than through whatever electronics you typically put between the bass and the snake's XLR. And let's say a big part of the reason you do use those electronics is to a) cut back some of the Mexican P's glassiness and b) beef up some of its bottom end before someone else gets his hands on your signal. Well, the pickup swap will do a lot of that for you, and it'll make you a lot less hesitant about providing a direct feed.

With the right EQ and the right people back at the board, the stock Mexican Precision pickup gets the job done just fine. (I can provide Youtube links offline to prove it; just ask.) But I tell you, the PV '63 pickup makes me not want to put the instrument down. It's got that Smile Factor.

Hope this is helpful to some of you.

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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:14 pm
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Thank you very much.

Fender used to have approximate EQ settings listed on these pickups (it still does on the Fender international site). My only complaint with the Original is it needs a tad more low end and it is very quiet, even going direct into a DAW via a Firewire interface like my M-Audio ProFire 610.

The 62 CS seems to have the same output but more bass and highs, with scooped mids.

What is interesting to me is that the 58s have more output, around 12 k I believe.

Coming from the usual Duncan/DiMarzio/EMG crowd to trying out vintage Fender and Gibson designs, I have been very pleased. However, it would be helpful if Fender's marketing department would clarify the difference among similar spec'ed pickups.


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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:29 pm
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I almost went with the '58 set, but that raised A pole pair sort of put me off. I understand the reason they did it relative to the E string -- so you wouldn't have to sock the E string side of that pickup so far down. But I was worried about balancing that "loud" A with the D and G pair, as in maybe not being able to get D and G loud enough (i.e. raised up far enough) to match it. Besides, I like running my pickups far from the strings.

Well, I've been playing the Precision with this new pickup most of the afternoon. Been using an Avatar B212, which has a very strong bass range and is reserved in the mids compared to a lot of other bass cabs. It's almost too much bass-wise now. Tomorrow I'm going to pull out my Avatar B115T which has one of those heavy-magnet 15s with real strong mids that Eminence was OEM'ing out to SWR not that far back. I'm guessing it'll be a decent match. Also got a pair of tiny sealed Carvin 115s I want to try again with this pickup. Its stronger bottom might do a lot to compensate for the totally missing low end on those cabs.

I come from DiMarzio and EMG roots, too. I never liked any of them. They all sounded flat and lifeless no matter what I did EQ-wise. I still have a set of DiMarzio Ps from the mid '80s or maybe even earlier. Cream covers, and I think ceramic magnets. Lots of deep end, lots of treble, but no mids and no punch whatsoever. I put them in a '70s P when I bought them, and I took them out the same day. (And those '70s Ps weren't exactly tone monsters IMO.) The hair metal bands used those DiMarzios a lot 30 years ago. They always sounded dead and clanky. Wasn't it BC Rich who used them? I guess they were okay if that's what you were after.

Got a church gig Sunday where I'll get to try out this '63 set. Modern church with loud, fast, modern music. This one's in a 250 seat movie theater with Dolby surround and I have to stand right in front of the 2x18" bin that takes care of everything from about 80 Hz on down for the whole room. (It's literally 2 feet behind me behind a thin black curtain.) Got a feeling I'm gonna walk away with either a smile or a migraine, but I'm putting my money on the former.

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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:07 pm
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I'm certainly a metal guy (Jackson usually) but I went with BC RIch because they're one of the few manufacturers who still does dual split P's and I wanted to try those out in lieu of dual soapbars, dual MM, or PJ (I believe the pole position on a split P makes a difference--there is a video on YouTube of a BC Rich Eagle with dual split P's and reverse dual split P's and you can definitely hear a difference).

I usually prefer actives for guitar but passive for bass--active basses sound too bright to my ear. I also don't need a lot of the on instrument tonal options that active basses usually provide.

Besides Fender, I have only tried the Duncan SPB3, which is entirely too deep and full for most work. It is one of those situations where the bass sounds amazing by itself but the moment you are in a mix you are cutting below 100-200 hz and boosting around 800 hz to clean things up.

I like fatness and attack in my basses, so I stopped using a regular P because I like something in the bridge, and playing with a bridge only sound is cool for fretless work on legato slides.


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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:34 pm
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You mentioned reverse split P arrangements. Dan Atkinson (no longer in business, thanks to jerky customers) used to build them that way. It's a huge improvement in string balance over the stock arrangement. I have a P/J Charvel/Jackson from the mid '80s with that setup, and I love the thing. Come on Fender, what the heck, let's get with it.

Wanted to add something to my review. With the stock Mexican P pickup I normally ran the tone knob about 2/3 closed. (Stopped turning CCW just before the point where all those ganky mids get added.) Well today I found out doing that with the PV '63 pickup sucks all the life & dynamics out of it, even down in the bass region. Almost sounds like a tube preamp with a really weak V1, or one of those limp $9 generic Chinese 12AX7s. The effect is not subtle. Way different RLC time constants, so no big surprise as I look back on it. With the tone control wide open, everything's great.

The lesson: With this drastic of a change from stock, you almost have to start at the beginning and forget everything that used to work before.

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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:55 pm
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I wish I could get into reverse P's--God knows I love those 80s Jackson/Charvel/Kramer type PJs, but I like the high strings to be bright with snap, and moving the P in a reverse fashion seems to be at cross purposes to my ear--like putting a ceramic pickup in the neck. The construction of the pickup which lends it to a bright tone fights the tonality of the position somewhat.

I normally gut import guitars and put nice electronics in them. In this case I emptied the active pickups and preamp out of a BC Rich NJ Warlock import. Sturdy bass that I got for a good price used. I replaced the stock stuff with CTS 250k pots, Orange Drop .1 uf caps, and the Original P pickups with the beveled magnets. Other than needing a little more low end and volume, it sounds much better than the actives I swapped out.

I normally don't use tone knobs much save on all the way open or closed because it's difficult to recall exact settings for recording. I like using the amp software to dial in tone, as it's far more exact in terms of consistent tone in the event of tracking done far apart in time.

When you mentioned the 58s having the raised A magnets, with the Warlock having such a flat neck, I don't think the raised A would be that necessary. Then again, some people swear they don't make a difference. Several guitarists on the Duncan boards swear by using staggered magnets even on flat necks, as they can't tell a difference and they prefer the looks of the staggered single coil poles.

As a somewhat unrelated aside, the best bass I have ever heard fretless would probably be a Lightwave bass, which sounds very close to a traditional vintage passive bass. The tone sounds very vintage but also clear--all the benefits of active and passive In one, and the piezo pickups in the bass help with the high end. The legato slides are very nice and silky.


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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:31 am
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> I normally don't use tone knobs much save on all the way open or closed because it's
> difficult to recall exact settings for recording. I like using the amp software to dial in tone,
> as it's far more exact in terms of consistent tone in the event of tracking done far apart
> in time.

That really is an outstanding point. So much can change even from week to week.

The logical conclusion would be a Precision that communicates via digital stream: for example, part of a network that includes a modeler (or more than one modeler). Delay times are down into the single-digit milliseconds now, which tells me we've got the clock speeds and the coding chops to be able to pull it off. Do the A/D conversion right on the instrument with POE supplying the sensors & converter (no onboard battery needed). Replace the phone jack with an RJ45.

A Precision with an IP address and a subnet mask, lol..........

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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:10 pm
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Well, I got back a few hours ago from the gig. This pickup is absolutely massive at the bottom end, with mids and highs that are a lot more restrained than the stock pickup. There was a keyboard player there who doesn't understand the concept of left-hand restraint when working in a full-band situation, and so the Precision not having a lot of mids going on with the new pickup helped keep that slot from getting muddied up from two instruments working in the same range.

There was enough treble to get the job done in "This is Amazing Grace" (Phil Wickham) without the pick attack sounding too clanky, which always seemed to be the case with the stock pickup.

I wish the sound man had run us a lot louder in the room. I would've liked to hear whether standing-wave problems were better or worse compared to the stock pickup. It was tough to say at the low volume he had us at.

The instrument sounded fantastic through my IEMs, almost like a recording where the engineer had punched up the bass for more "sock" at the bottom end. Got a compliment on it from the drummer, who was wearing full cans. The instrument sounded really well-anchored, even on the very lowest notes.

The painful perspective: He and I are probably the only ones who heard the difference in that live situation.

So, objectively, from an audience/performance standpoint, was there a net benefit to the $100 I dropped on this thing? Probably not. But that low end... wow.

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Post subject: Re: P bass pickup comparisons
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:22 pm
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Thanks for keeping me in the loop.

Your concerns about low end, etc., and being in a live situation make me think about my needs. I record mostly, and as a general rule, I roll off everything below 50 hz because most consumer speaker systems can't handle it without sounding terrible, especially car 6x9s.

Depending upon tuning, with guitars I usually roll off below 100-200hz, and boost around that range. It also gets a boost around 2.5 kHz. I leave the bass to take up the mids, usually around 800-1.6 kHz, with the troublesome 400hz range getting axed.

Heavy metal snares and triggered kick drums usually get in around the 1 kHz mark.

I will probably try the Duncan SPB1s and 2s, as well as the new Steve Harris line, as well as the Custom Shop 62s. Once I decide what I like the unused ones will go back.

Duncan offers a 21 day trial period for pickups that Fender does not, unfortunately. I suppose purchasing from Musician's Friend or some other retailer would give a similar result as far as returns, but I have not seen the newer 58/63 Fenders available on these sites.


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