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Post subject: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:14 pm
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I ordered three original fender 250k pots for a pickguard I put together with custom shop texas specials. One of them came in at 238k and the other two were 212k and 210k. I used the 238k for the volume and the other two for tone controls.

My question is, how will the two lower than normal value tone pots affect the sound when set to ten? I read somewhere that in order to get maximum "quack ness" in the two and four positions I should have as close to 250k as possible. Is this true? The pups just don't seems as bright as they did when I had them installed in one of my other strats. Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

On another note, anybody know the tolerance specs on these oem Fender pots?

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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:13 am
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I see same thing as you with Fender pots , I have few at home . IMO tolerance could be 10 % and 10 % on a 250 K is 25K .

Can we hear it ? I don't know .


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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:03 am
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210k and 212k are quite low and could very possibly make the tone darker. 238k is borderline -- might or might not be able to hear it (probably not).

Here's a link that shows how to raise pot values, and also how to convert pots to clickless no-load pots. http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/pots.htm It's easy to do (but remember that you can't use a no-load for the volume control -- you can "blueprint" all three up to 250k or higher, but only convert 2 of them into no-loads).

"The pups just don't seems as bright as they did when I had them installed in one of my other strats."

Did you move these pups from one guitar to the other, or is this a new set of pups that are the same as the pups you put in the other guitar? The guitar itself has some influence on tone -- the same pups will sound darker in some guitars than others. If it's also a different set of pups, pups also have build tolerances and it's possible these are a little overwound compared to the other set pups. Also, are they set to exactly the same height as in the other guitar? A few mm's can make a big difference.

If you don't want to fuss with disassembling and scraping the pots right away, you could try disconnecting the tone controls. That's equivalent to having no-load pots turned to "10". If that gives you the sound you want, convert the pots. If it's too bright, blueprint the pots but don't convert them to no-loads. If it's still not bright enough, then you need to consider the volume pot or conclude that the problem is elsewhere.


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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:25 am
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Strayedstrater,

Interestink link ,but IMO you can't easely raise pot value;


Author write ; ( red color is from me )

Here's another cool trick to bring the resistance values up a bit if you're close.... Carefully take your exacto knife or razor blade and remove some carbon from the inside areas of both the top and bottom areas of the carbon... You aren't scraping the top of the carbon, but the thin sides of the carbon away from the area where the pot connection touches the carbon track...
.....A 250k pot can read plus or minus 20% either way... I Like my pots to read at least 250k or above and 500k or above.


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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:36 pm
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Thanks to all for your replies.

strayedstrater wrote:
210k and 212k are quite low and could very possibly make the tone darker. 238k is borderline -- might or might not be able to hear it (probably not).

Here's a link that shows how to raise pot values, and also how to convert pots to clickless no-load pots. http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/pots.htm It's easy to do (but remember that you can't use a no-load for the volume control -- you can "blueprint" all three up to 250k or higher, but only convert 2 of them into no-loads).

"The pups just don't seems as bright as they did when I had them installed in one of my other strats."

Did you move these pups from one guitar to the other, or is this a new set of pups that are the same as the pups you put in the other guitar? The guitar itself has some influence on tone -- the same pups will sound darker in some guitars than others. If it's also a different set of pups, pups also have build tolerances and it's possible these are a little overwound compared to the other set pups. Also, are they set to exactly the same height as in the other guitar? A few mm's can make a big difference.

If you don't want to fuss with disassembling and scraping the pots right away, you could try disconnecting the tone controls. That's equivalent to having no-load pots turned to "10". If that gives you the sound you want, convert the pots. If it's too bright, blueprint the pots but don't convert them to no-loads. If it's still not bright enough, then you need to consider the volume pot or conclude that the problem is elsewhere.


Thanks for the link. I'm gonna give it a try and see what comes of it.

As for the pups, same pups just moved from one guitar to another. I tried these in an already pre loaded pickguard and just swapped the pups and they sounded very nice and chimey. I removed them from that guitar to install them in my MIM strat and although they still sound good, they're missing just a bit of that chimey ness. I honestly think it has to do with the out of spec tone pots. I'll try removing the pots from the circuit and see what that yields.

stratele52 wrote:
Strayedstrater,

Interestink link ,but IMO you can't easely raise pot value;


Author write ; ( red color is from me )

Here's another cool trick to bring the resistance values up a bit if you're close.... Carefully take your exacto knife or razor blade and remove some carbon from the inside areas of both the top and bottom areas of the carbon... You aren't scraping the top of the carbon, but the thin sides of the carbon away from the area where the pot connection touches the carbon track...
.....A 250k pot can read plus or minus 20% either way... I Like my pots to read at least 250k or above and 500k or above.


This seems a little risky considering they are way off, but I'll keep this in mind for future projects. Thanks.

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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:38 pm
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socal323 wrote:
I ordered three original fender 250k pots for a pickguard I put together with custom shop texas specials. One of them came in at 238k and the other two were 212k and 210k. I used the 238k for the volume and the other two for tone controls.

My question is, how will the two lower than normal value tone pots affect the sound when set to ten? I read somewhere that in order to get maximum "quack ness" in the two and four positions I should have as close to 250k as possible. Is this true? The pups just don't seems as bright as they did when I had them installed in one of my other strats. Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

On another note, anybody know the tolerance specs on these oem Fender pots?



I bought a batch of CTS 250k pots for some of my projects. Weakest one measured 235k, all others were 258k and as high as 265k. Highest I've ever encountered was a 269k which was a vintage one.

You might want to look into getting some.


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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:38 pm
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What value tone cap are you using in the MIM guitar?

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:34 pm
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warmachine wrote:
I bought a batch of CTS 250k pots for some of my projects. Weakest one measured 235k, all others were 258k and as high as 265k. Highest I've ever encountered was a 269k which was a vintage one.

You might want to look into getting some.


I've thought about that. Next batch will be cts.

Retroverbial wrote:
What value tone cap are you using in the MIM guitar?

Arjay


.022uf measured with my Fluke for verification.

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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:20 pm
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Was that other Strat also equipped with the same .022ufd value?

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:00 pm
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Yes it is.

Major differences between the two guitars is my mim is ash body with rosewood neck and the other guitar is maple neck with a butcher block body. I didn't have a chance to measure the pots but I believe they are 250k. I'll have to double check.

I guess what I'm trying to find out is if I have a pot that only measures 208k for the tone control would that be like always having my tone pot set to like 6, 7 or 8 when maxed out?

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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:36 am
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socal323 wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to find out is if I have a pot that only measures 208k for the tone control would that be like always having my tone pot set to like 6, 7 or 8 when maxed out?


It's more like 9 or maybe even 9.5 -- a very slight loss of treble.

While a tone pot isn't wired as a volume pot, what it effectively does is cut the volume of the treble. And the way our ears hear is logarithmic, not linear. So it takes a really big cut to be significant -- by 8 or so you're down to about 125K. So the difference between 250K and 208 isn't as huge as it appears on the face of it.

A no-load pot is infinite ohms at 10, and it causes just a subtle increase in treble compared to 250K.

That's not to say you shouldn't be able to hear the difference between 250K and 208K -- there will be a slight, subtle loss of sparkle and chime. But if you're talking about a huge difference, the tone pots may not be the whole cause.

While the 238K volume pot seems like it should be less significant than the much more out of spec tone pots, the volume pot actually has a lot of tonal influence because it's an impedance load. Especially in parallel with the below-spec tone pots. If you've got way too little treble now, blueprint the volume pot and convert the tones to no-loads.

Also check your solder joints -- a dodgy joint can suck out a lot of treble.


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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:39 am
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strayedstrater wrote:
socal323 wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to find out is if I have a pot that only measures 208k for the tone control would that be like always having my tone pot set to like 6, 7 or 8 when maxed out?


It's more like 9 or maybe even 9.5 -- a very slight loss of treble.

While a tone pot isn't wired as a volume pot, what it effectively does is cut the volume of the treble. And the way our ears hear is logarithmic, not linear. So it takes a really big cut to be significant -- by 8 or so you're down to about 125K. So the difference between 250K and 208 isn't as huge as it appears on the face of it.

A no-load pot is infinite ohms at 10, and it causes just a subtle increase in treble compared to 250K.

That's not to say you shouldn't be able to hear the difference between 250K and 208K -- there will be a slight, subtle loss of sparkle and chime. But if you're talking about a huge difference, the tone pots may not be the whole cause.

While the 238K volume pot seems like it should be less significant than the much more out of spec tone pots, the volume pot actually has a lot of tonal influence because it's an impedance load. Especially in parallel with the below-spec tone pots. If you've got way too little treble now, blueprint the volume pot and convert the tones to no-loads.

Also check your solder joints -- a dodgy joint can suck out a lot of treble.


+1

Great explanation! This should be permanently posted as a "stickie" or a FAQ.

Rawk on!

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tone pots not 250k
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:08 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
strayedstrater wrote:
socal323 wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to find out is if I have a pot that only measures 208k for the tone control would that be like always having my tone pot set to like 6, 7 or 8 when maxed out?


It's more like 9 or maybe even 9.5 -- a very slight loss of treble.

While a tone pot isn't wired as a volume pot, what it effectively does is cut the volume of the treble. And the way our ears hear is logarithmic, not linear. So it takes a really big cut to be significant -- by 8 or so you're down to about 125K. So the difference between 250K and 208 isn't as huge as it appears on the face of it.

A no-load pot is infinite ohms at 10, and it causes just a subtle increase in treble compared to 250K.

That's not to say you shouldn't be able to hear the difference between 250K and 208K -- there will be a slight, subtle loss of sparkle and chime. But if you're talking about a huge difference, the tone pots may not be the whole cause.

While the 238K volume pot seems like it should be less significant than the much more out of spec tone pots, the volume pot actually has a lot of tonal influence because it's an impedance load. Especially in parallel with the below-spec tone pots. If you've got way too little treble now, blueprint the volume pot and convert the tones to no-loads.

Also check your solder joints -- a dodgy joint can suck out a lot of treble.


+1

Great explanation! This should be permanently posted as a "stickie" or a FAQ.

Rawk on!

8)

Arjay


Thanks for the explanation guys, I'll double check the solder connections and get to work on converting those pots to "no load" tone pots. I'll report back when complete.

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