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Post subject: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:09 pm
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I use Vintage Noiseless Pups in one of my Strats and for years I could not get rid of the terrible ice-pick from the insane highs, it was awful, but after reading some reviews on Harmony Central I decided to purchase the
Fender® USA "Vintage" Style 5-way Wiring Kit Strat® which includes:
(3)Genuine FENDER USA CTS 250k audio taper pots
FENDER USA Switchcraft jack
2x Foot Each of Black & White Cloth Wire .22
Fender USA 0.22k Capacitator
Fender USA Wiring Diagram Included
I got them installed plus I also got the pups lowered quite a bit & that did the trick. Now my Strat has the vintage strat tone plus it's noiseless. What a difference, what a positive outcome.
The message here is: Fender needs to stop issuing those 1 Meg pots with the VN & issue the 250k pots + 0.22k Cap instead. The 1 Meg pots system is counter productive & giving the VN a bad tone not to mention a bad rep. Luckily I didn't give up on these pups, you have no idea how close I came to replacing them with Kinmans just out of sheer frustration.


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:40 pm
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Geez, and I just installed a set of VN's in a client's Strat a few weeks back (with the 1meg pots)! He insisted on using everything that came in the kit. I should prolly call him back and see how the guitar is doing -- he might prefer to have the 250k's re-installed.

Thanks for the report, Maiki.

And welcome to the forum.

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:44 pm
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Thank U for the welcome Arjay, yes I am new here. I posted the article to increase awareness. Believe it or not when I first had VN's installed ten years ago I insisted to the guy at the shop to install the 1 Meg pots they came with. I'd been running my Strat thru' some good amps so I knew the VN pups had some serious issues but I just couldn't place my finger on it. Some of my research told me that the VN's are actually 57/62's (my own conclusion) in a stacked coil configuration, here's why I make this seemingly preposterous claim: The VN's and 57/62's have the exact same inductance, 3.0 Henries, i.e. they're made from the exact same magnet material, which means VN's are 57/62's in a stacked coil arrangement, that's why they're called: Vintage Noiseless; which is why I was so reluctant to give up on the VN's (even though they sounded bloody awful). So I was on a quest to make what really should be one of the most awesome Strat pups reclaim its rightful crown: Vintage Noiseless. Well, after the necessary mods, they sound just like 57/62's but noiseless, in other words: Heart stoppingly BEAUTIFUL.


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:54 pm
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I'll be curious to read what Martian (our resident pickup expert here) has to say about this development.

What amp do you play those VN's through?

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:58 am
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The amps I've played them through are: Marshall JCM 900 (100W), Marshall 1959 SLP (100W), Fender Twin Amp (100W), Fender '65 Twin Reverb (85W). I've also recorded them DI through various recording platforms. When you're aware of what you're listening for, you simply can't help but notice its presence: Ear-drum piercing ice-pick. Although the Fender amps were kinder to the VN's, when I plugged in another Strat containing Kinman Mk2's for a comparison, it was like night and day, you can guess which one was night. I'm Australian so I live in the land of Kinman, so you can imagine how tempted I was to solve the problem by just replacing the VN's with Kinman Mk3's, but I was determined to get to the bottom of the problem. I knew that the VN's were essentially good pups, with the potential for greatness, hence the quest to get it right. I don't know what the people at Fender were thinking when they created an awesome pup and then proceeded to destroy it by accompanying it with 1 Meg pots + 0.022 mf cap. etc, this has got to be the mismatch of the century, talk about shooting yourself in the foot, anyway since the mod, I'm really happy with the VN's now. Hope Fender wakes up to this soon, cos the VN's are getting a very bad reputation, which they don't deserve. They deserve better.


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:21 am
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A friend of mine owns a set of Kinman's that he's installed in an AVRI '57 Strat -- it sounds awesome played through his old beat-to-crap '62 brownface Concert amp. I love that tone.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:22 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
I'll be curious to read what Martian (our resident pickup expert here) has to say about this development...Arjay


I've been saying this repeatedly and for a very long time now about 250K (audio) pots being the best for these pickups along with the .022 cap. Also, how many times have how many other people said to lower certain Alnico V pickups for best results? Finally, here's living proof!

And of course, welcome, Maiki!

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:45 pm
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We always bow in awe at your sage advice, most worthy sensei.

:wink:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:49 am
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Martian wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
I'll be curious to read what Martian (our resident pickup expert here) has to say about this development...Arjay


I've been saying this repeatedly and for a very long time now about 250K (audio) pots being the best for these pickups along with the .022 cap. Also, how many times have how many other people said to lower certain Alnico V pickups for best results? Finally, here's living proof!

And of course, welcome, Maiki!


Martian,
Correct me if I'm wrong please but aren't AlNiCo V magnets stronger anyway and so, dictate that you would lower them to get better tone?

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:09 am
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tyronne wrote:
Martian,
Correct me if I'm wrong please but aren't AlNiCo V magnets stronger anyway and so, dictate that you would lower them to get better tone?


Alnico V magnets are traditionally the strongest in pickups although now, there is a new fad where some players are dabbling with Alnico VIIIs in full sized HBs, believe it or not. The purpose is to emulate ceramic aggression while retaining the tonality of Alnico. I've tried Alnico VIII bar magnets in several popular, full sized HBs myself and found that the magnetic pull was way too strong to where the pickups had to be lowered because with the typical lighter gauge string sets of today, the strings were visibly getting pulled into the pickups. Of course, the degree I had to lower these pickups reduces the magnetic pull which in essence, defeats the root purpose of the VIIIs.

Back to the Alnico Vs: As stated above, the height has a lot to do with the gauge of string set where within this, excessive magnetic pull will produce all those double tone/warbly sounds with no sustain, commonly know as "Stratitis". So, if a player is one of those brave souls who likes say, a 13 gauge set, the pickup(s) can be adjusted closer to the strings as the increased mass of the strings more effectively resists the magnetic pull. You can now see that is a combination of the magnet(s) composition, the string set's gauge and even metallic composition, the guitar's action and how aggressive the individual player is. So yes, in a direct answer to your question, with the majority of players nowadays tending to use lighter gauge string sets, they run the risk of Alnico V magnets producing Stratitis if the pickups are set too close to the strings. Lowering the pickup(s) away from the strings of course, reduces the magnetic field to where the 'perfect' balance is found.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:01 am
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Very good, Martian, well said, with regard to the various gauges of Alnico strength and their treatment. But lest the tangent of the discussion get beyond the original intent of the thread, let me restate and emphasize an important point that could be a redeeming factor for the VN pup, and that is: "It is my strongest belief that the VN pup is in fact the 57/62 pup in a stacked coil arrangement." Why? Because they share the exact same magnet.


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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:43 pm
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That would make good business (economic) sense since FMIC spent quite a bit of R&D money developing the 57/62's in the first place. And they're a very good sounding set of pickups.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:17 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
That would make good business (economic) sense since FMIC spent quite a bit of R&D money developing the 57/62's in the first place. And they're a very good sounding set of pickups.

Arjay


Agreed. Most pickups by any manufacturer are variations on one particular pickup's design. It would follow that further designs would be based on one of their most successful variations.

FWIW, the 57/62 design is based on a "reverse engineered" 1961 Strat pickup, believe it or not.

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Post subject: Re: Vintage Noiseless Strat Pots
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:14 pm
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Martian wrote:
FWIW, the 57/62 design is based on a "reverse engineered" 1961 Strat pickup, believe it or not.


Indeed. I think I might've read that in an old "Frontline" from the early '90s.

8)

Arjay

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