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Post subject: Lindy Fralin vs Samarium Cobalt Noiseless Pups
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:27 am
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Hi, I did a search, and as some round about info did pop up, there was nothing that was straight to the point about this comparison. So I thought I would dedicate a thread to it so I could get a answer plus help any future kat wondering the same thing.

Which is better: Lindy Fralin pick ups, or the stock pick ups that come on a Deluxe Strat ?

See, I am about to get my first guitar. (and learn to play on it too) SO this question is coming from a completely blind rookie for sure, I will not deny that, so go easy on me.

I have decided to get a American Deluxe Strat (or form of). My friend who plays alot said "get Lindy Fralin pups, their the best". But from what I can gather, others say the noiseless pups that come on a Deluxe Strat stock are great.

So I ask, oh great pros, break it down--


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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:42 am
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'Best' is VERY subjective.

I have the SCN's on my Am Ash DLX, as well as a set of Fralin Vintage Hot's with a base plate.

Both are decent, but are also very different. It all depends on what kind of sound you're looking for.

Fralin's are a decent vintage tone pickups (not my favorite, but are decent).

SCN's are much hotter, and sound good when pushed hard and/or through a solid state amp.

Personally, I think the SCN's sound 20x better with new capacitors. I found that I like a 0.047uf Orange Drop tone cap, and replace the S-1 cap with anything other than what's on there (I used a 0.039uf Mallory cap). This has become my main hard rock guitar.

Total price of the two caps is around $5. Price of a set of Fralin's ~$250 + ~$25 for new vol pot and new switch because the S-1 isn't compatible with the Fralins .

YMMV


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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:57 pm
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pcheng wrote:
'Best' is VERY subjective.

I have the SCN's on my Am Ash DLX, as well as a set of Fralin Vintage Hot's with a base plate.

Both are decent, but are also very different. It all depends on what kind of sound you're looking for.

Fralin's are a decent vintage tone pickups (not my favorite, but are decent).

SCN's are much hotter, and sound good when pushed hard and/or through a solid state amp.

Personally, I think the SCN's sound 20x better with new capacitors. I found that I like a 0.047uf Orange Drop tone cap, and replace the S-1 cap with anything other than what's on there (I used a 0.039uf Mallory cap). This has become my main hard rock guitar.

Total price of the two caps is around $5. Price of a set of Fralin's ~$250 + ~$25 for new vol pot and new switch because the S-1 isn't compatible with the Fralins .

YMMV


Man, you are totally right. Sorry, I should have said "best" for what sound.

And utmost and foremost, I appreciate you chiming in and giving help.

So which pups (and feel free to list others I may not heard of) are the "industry known "best" for:

I mainly like that old Isley Brothers sound (like on Footsteps In The Dark, and Groove With You)--Footsteps In The Dark -- Groove With You

So more of a soul sound. But also from time to time a rockish sound, but more like black soul rock like the certain parts of Cameo "Candy" or something like that. At the same time, something universal in case I do want to do anything else. I like Funk, Commercial Pop, R&B, Indie Rock, Alt Rock, Soft Rock, 80's Progressive Rock and just good Soulful music. 70's Billboard hits are a MUST.

Also that riff from Owner Of A Lonely Heart (the short stab parts) is always a tone I've been looking for if we were to talk rock.

But I can guarantee nothing needed for a metal sound, or overly hard rock.

Thanks


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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:48 pm
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For what it's worth:

From what you have listed, the two the three songs listed had relatively clean tones compared to the Yes song.

Here is what I would suggest: Go with an Alder body guitar.

I have an Am Ash Deluxe and various other strats (57 AVRI, 57 VHR, and Classic 50). It sounds like you're not affraid to experiment with different pickups (like me). None of the strats I play have the original pickups. However, I've found that my heavy Ash Dlx has a much harder time with different pickups, than any of my Alder body guitars. What I mean is that my Ash Dlx only sounds good with really hot pickups; and driven hard. My alder body guitars sounds good with anything I throw in them.

So, for about the same money, I would check out the 57 AVRI, or the 62 AVRI depending on which neck you like better. Then install a 0.047 cap and the 5-way switch. Try that out first.

Then if you want some really sparklely clean tone that can fatten right up and has good range; check out a set of Don Mare Supersport or Night Flyers.

Of course, this is only my opinion, and everybody knows that opinions are like..... well, you know the saying, cuz everybody has one.


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:56 am
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pcheng wrote:
For what it's worth:

From what you have listed, the two the three songs listed had relatively clean tones compared to the Yes song.

Here is what I would suggest: Go with an Alder body guitar.

I have an Am Ash Deluxe and various other strats (57 AVRI, 57 VHR, and Classic 50). It sounds like you're not affraid to experiment with different pickups (like me). None of the strats I play have the original pickups. However, I've found that my heavy Ash Dlx has a much harder time with different pickups, than any of my Alder body guitars. What I mean is that my Ash Dlx only sounds good with really hot pickups; and driven hard. My alder body guitars sounds good with anything I throw in them.

So, for about the same money, I would check out the 57 AVRI, or the 62 AVRI depending on which neck you like better. Then install a 0.047 cap and the 5-way switch. Try that out first.

Then if you want some really sparklely clean tone that can fatten right up and has good range; check out a set of Don Mare Supersport or Night Flyers.

Of course, this is only my opinion, and everybody knows that opinions are like..... well, you know the saying, cuz everybody has one.


Wow, man, thanks for the serious tips. I did not expect this to be such a science. Actually this sounds kinda fun. Messin around with all this and buy cool ingredients to figure out my favorite personal tone.

So I guess you just kinda felt out my tonal needs from my songs I listed and chose the above ? Dude, right on for the in-depth thoughts.

So hey, I imagine when you said to get and install a 0.047 cap, you meant to buy the one on Don Mare's site ? Listed as: .047 ORANGE DROP CUSTOM SPEC TONE CAP ? Or do you mean some other source for this "cap" you speak of ?

Ok, well thanks dude, and I guess now I have to rethink my guitar. I was kinda set on a Deluxe Strat. I will now compare what I get and don't get from each. Then try to hear some samples of the reissue one. If I do get the Reissue, I would go for a '57 AVRI because I know for sure I want a Maple neck. To me, they just look cooler. (lol) And it looks like the '62 don't come in a maple neck. ( I know, not like it matters.)

So man, either way, let me clear this up..back on topic - you are saying you like Don Mare pups better than Lindy Fralin pups ? And I even gathered you said you like SCN's (with a different cap) better than the Lindy Fralins too ?


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:24 am
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Infa Red wrote:
pcheng wrote:
Here is what I would suggest: Go with an Alder body guitar. I have an Am Ash Deluxe and various other strats (57 AVRI, 57 VHR, and Classic 50). It sounds like you're not affraid to experiment with different pickups (like me). None of the strats I play have the original pickups. However, I've found that my heavy Ash Dlx has a much harder time with different pickups, than any of my Alder body guitars. What I mean is that my Ash Dlx only sounds good with really hot pickups; and driven hard. My alder body guitars sounds good with anything I throw in them.


Ok, well thanks dude, and I guess now I have to rethink my guitar. I was kinda set on a Deluxe Strat.



Most American Deluxe Strats do have an alder body! There are certain finishes/colors that come with an ash body, but off hand I don't know which ones.


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:03 am
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If this is your first guitar and you have never played guitar before don't worry about the pickups. I would recommend you get something less expensive like a American Standard, leave it stock, and use the money you save to pay for guitar lessons.


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:46 pm
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mikebu wrote:
If this is your first guitar and you have never played guitar before don't worry about the pickups. I would recommend you get something less expensive like a American Standard, leave it stock, and use the money you save to pay for guitar lessons.


Aint this the truth. I did n't want to sidetrack anything, but I was told by a guitar playing friend (who is also good) that now-a-days (and pending on the person, which he thinks I could do) that lessons are too expensive for what they give you and the way they make the DVD guitar lessons now a days are just amazing. He completely feels I could learn from a few hundred dollars in DVDs and then him and myself honing me in.

My history is, I already am a pretty good keyboardist. And I taught myself that. (just took lessons on music theory later).

But either way, I feel what you are saying cause it makes sense. Most would think, "well dude, if you end up not liking playing the guitar or just can't learn then why have wasted all that money, get a cheap guitar at first." See I just didn't want to get into it that much on this thread, but I own a recording studio and this guitar was going to double as a guitar my beloved "session guitarist's" could use too. So I wanted to make sure it was something they didn't have but yet was something they yearned after so they were happy to use it if need be for us for a different tone than theirs, etc..

At the same time, I still feel ya though... I am looking around hang them help me along with the great professionals here too. So all in all, I am still in thinking mode just gathering info. I need a super awesome pro sought after ripping tone Amp too !! (for same reasons above). So I really need to save up money. I got about 3k for it so far for everything. I want a real deal Fender Twin Reverb, but man, they are expensive for a used amp. But I am told we would not be let down on the sound we get to Mic.


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:52 pm
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Think Floyd wrote:
Most American Deluxe Strats do have an alder body! There are certain finishes/colors that come with an ash body, but off hand I don't know which ones.


Yea I kinda seen that from before. So I knew if I did get one of those to make sure to not get the Ash deluxe one. But towards the end of his post he did suggest looking into a 57 or 62 RI:
pcheng wrote:
So, for about the same money, I would check out the 57 AVRI, or the 62 AVRI depending on which neck you like better. Then install a 0.047 cap and the 5-way switch.
so I figured he was suggesting me to get one of those vs a Deluxe cause he feels they would capture the tonalities I was looking for ?


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:34 pm
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Infa Red wrote:
so I figured he was suggesting me to get one of those vs a Deluxe cause he feels they would capture the tonalities I was looking for ?


Exactly. You should always check out your options. If you're interested in the DLX, then TF is right, there are Alder and Ash DLX's:

Alder: http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-American-Deluxe-Stratocaster?sku=511142
Ash: http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-American-Deluxe-Ash-Stratocaster-Electric-Guitar?sku=511143

I personally prefer the AVRI series because of the vintage saddles (and other minor differences). I think the frets on the DLX are finished better, but my 57 AVRI is a nice guitar. I only threw out those suggestions because they're in similar costs category from your original post. The reality is that you need to find the guitar that inspires you to pick up and play (be it $100 Used Squier or $4K Custom Shop). Utilmately, you shouldn't just trust some internet hack to make your +$1K buying decision for you: I'm assuming you already knew this.

All I'm saying is that if I only had one guitar to buy, I would buy an Alder body guitar over a heavy Ash guitar. I have two heavy Ash strats ('79 hard tail and an '06 Am Ash Dlx). Both guitars sound great cranked, but not quite as nice as the Alder's not cranked. Plus, both Ash body guitars don't get along as well with 'vintage' type pickups as the Alder bodies do. For someone who asks about swapping pickups, I would think that piece of info might be considered.

Caps: I buy my inexpensive ($2 Sprague) caps from Guitar Parts Resource (and other loose parts). I buy my expensive caps (~$18 Jensen PIO) caps from RS Guitar Works. (Don't want to take anything away from Don, but I don't think he's interested in making a living selling caps and pots)

I have a bunch of caps of different values, then I solder wire leads where the caps would go. I feed these wires out from under the pickguard, then use clips to try different cap values. Once I find a value that I like, then I buy a Jensen cap from RS. There are those that say that $18 for a cap is a waste of money; but the way I see it, I've already popped +$1K for a guitar, what's another $13. Anyways, if you can hear the difference, then that's the only opinion that counts.

Pickups:
I personally like my Don Mare's more than my Fralins. I think the SCN's (with new caps) are decent, but not quite as nice as the Fralin's. Now are they an extra $250 nicer? I don't think I can answer that question, cuz for the money, I'd buy the Mare's.

Keep in mind, we're talking about splitting hairs here. This is the Heinz vs Hunts Ketchup, White vs Yellow American Cheese, Helleman's vs Kraft Mayo. You wouldn't throw away a burger and spit in the chef's face if you were served a burger with Hunts Ketchup, Yellow American Cheese and Kraft Mayo....

Of course all of this is in my humble opinion.


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:00 pm
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pcheng wrote:
Exactly. You should always check out your options. If you're interested in the DLX, then TF is right, there are Alder and Ash DLX's:

I personally prefer the AVRI series because of the vintage saddles (and other minor differences). I think the frets on the DLX are finished better, but my 57 AVRI is a nice guitar. I only threw out those suggestions because they're in similar costs category from your original post. The reality is that you need to find the guitar that inspires you to pick up and play (be it $100 Used Squier or $4K Custom Shop). Utilmately, you shouldn't just trust some internet hack to make your +$1K buying decision for you: I'm assuming you already knew this.

All I'm saying is that if I only had one guitar to buy, I would buy an Alder body guitar over a heavy Ash guitar. I have two heavy Ash strats ('79 hard tail and an '06 Am Ash Dlx). Both guitars sound great cranked, but not quite as nice as the Alder's not cranked. Plus, both Ash body guitars don't get along as well with 'vintage' type pickups as the Alder bodies do. For someone who asks about swapping pickups, I would think that piece of info might be considered.

Caps: I buy my inexpensive ($2 Sprague) caps from Guitar Parts Resource (and other loose parts). I buy my expensive caps (~$18 Jensen PIO) caps from RS Guitar Works. (Don't want to take anything away from Don, but I don't think he's interested in making a living selling caps and pots)

I have a bunch of caps of different values, then I solder wire leads where the caps would go. I feed these wires out from under the pickguard, then use clips to try different cap values. Once I find a value that I like, then I buy a Jensen cap from RS. There are those that say that $18 for a cap is a waste of money; but the way I see it, I've already popped +$1K for a guitar, what's another $13. Anyways, if you can hear the difference, then that's the only opinion that counts.

Pickups:
I personally like my Don Mare's more than my Fralins. I think the SCN's (with new caps) are decent, but not quite as nice as the Fralin's. Now are they an extra $250 nicer? I don't think I can answer that question, cuz for the money, I'd buy the Mare's.

Keep in mind, we're talking about splitting hairs here. This is the Heinz vs Hunts Ketchup, White vs Yellow American Cheese, Helleman's vs Kraft Mayo. You wouldn't throw away a burger and spit in the chef's face if you were served a burger with Hunts Ketchup, Yellow American Cheese and Kraft Mayo....

Of course all of this is in my humble opinion.


Ok, this is as usual great info, and thanks for the time it takes to relay all this. Trust me, it won't go to waste with me.

And yea, I know ultimately at the end of the day, it is up to me on what to do here. But I want to tell you that thanks to your great info and knowledge I have narrowed down the fact that I want a guitar with a Alder body and I will get that cap thing and some Don Mare pickups. I will make sure to get a Jenson cap from RS as you said. (yea i mean $18 aint jack).

So you have basically answered this threads topic. Pickups. I have that locked down tight now as a decision.

Now, I just will investigate which guitar 57 AVRI or a Deluxe Strat. Mainly, if I am changing out the pickups and that cap anyway, what are the real differences between a Deluxe and a 57 AVRI ? I mean, to me from what I read, it is really only the pickups.. so if on either guitar I get, I am changing the pickups and cap, to the decided ones (Don Mare SS, and Jenson .047 cap) then what does it matter between them two ? Do the pickups actually react better on one vs the other ? Is there some features on the 57 AVRI that is cooler than the Deluxe ? Is the inner circuitry different on them ? Etc...

I guess the summary of my question is:

For the tonalities you have learned I like, which guitar would Don Mare SS pickups (and even maybe later the Night Flyers for some extra flave's in the house) and that Jenson cap sound better on; a Deluxe Strat (non ash) of a 57 AVRI strat ? And WHY ?


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:50 pm
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Glad I can help:

For the final pickup choice, call Don. I've call him before each pickup purchase and he has given me good insight (I also have a set of his Hayride pickups on my Tele). Be specific on what equipment (amps, pedals, etc) you have, what kind of music you like to play, and where you will be playing (gigging, studio, home etc). He's a good guy, and always get back to you if he doesn't answer right away. I have the SS, but a friend has the the Night Flyers. The middle and neck pickups are essentially the same. The SS bridge is a little hotter. Also, since you're doing studio work, you may want a RW middle pup: you have to specify this when you order; but ask Don.

As far as the diff between my DLX and 57 AVRI...
Both are really nice guitars, and I think should pretty dang close. Close enough that I wouldn't be able to tell. The main differences will be feature differences. I'll try to summarize beyond some of the obvious differences:

- DLX has S-1 switch. If you switch pups, you will need to replace at least the vol pot and 5-way switch. When I changed out my DLX pickups, I swapped out the switch and all the pots (an extra $10). So there is no circuitry difference.

Other differences:
- AVRI has 7.25 radius neck and DLX has 9.5 radius neck. I like the 7.25 radius neck, but some prefer 9.5.
- AVRI has vintage tuners, and DLX has locking tuners. I like the vintage tuners better.
- DLX has a C shape neck and the AVRI has the Soft V neck (the V-Neck DLX has been discontinued, otherwise this would be a terrific compromise). I like the Soft V neck.
- Every DLX I've ever played had really nicely finished medium jumbo frets. The AVRI have narrow vintage frets.
- The AVRI has a vintage bridge and vintage saddles, the DLX has a modern two point bridge and cast saddles. I prefer the vintage saddles, but it's not a real noticable difference.
- The DLX has a Poly finish, and the AVRI has a Nitro over poly finish. I don't think there is any real noticable difference in either.
- The DLX has a shielded paint in the body cavity. I line both my DLX and my AVRI with copper foil, which I think works better than the shielded paint anyways.


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:08 pm
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pcheng wrote:
Glad I can help:

For the final pickup choice, call Don. I've call him before each pickup purchase and he has given me good insight (I also have a set of his Hayride pickups on my Tele). Be specific on what equipment (amps, pedals, etc) you have, what kind of music you like to play, and where you will be playing (gigging, studio, home etc). He's a good guy, and always get back to you if he doesn't answer right away. I have the SS, but a friend has the the Night Flyers. The middle and neck pickups are essentially the same. The SS bridge is a little hotter. Also, since you're doing studio work, you may want a RW middle pup: you have to specify this when you order; but ask Don.

As far as the diff between my DLX and 57 AVRI...
Both are really nice guitars, and I think should pretty dang close. Close enough that I wouldn't be able to tell. The main differences will be feature differences. I'll try to summarize beyond some of the obvious differences:

- DLX has S-1 switch. If you switch pups, you will need to replace at least the vol pot and 5-way switch. When I changed out my DLX pickups, I swapped out the switch and all the pots (an extra $10). So there is no circuitry difference.

Other differences:
- AVRI has 7.25 radius neck and DLX has 9.5 radius neck. I like the 7.25 radius neck, but some prefer 9.5.
- AVRI has vintage tuners, and DLX has locking tuners. I like the vintage tuners better.
- DLX has a C shape neck and the AVRI has the Soft V neck (the V-Neck DLX has been discontinued, otherwise this would be a terrific compromise). I like the Soft V neck.
- Every DLX I've ever played had really nicely finished medium jumbo frets. The AVRI have narrow vintage frets.
- The AVRI has a vintage bridge and vintage saddles, the DLX has a modern two point bridge and cast saddles. I prefer the vintage saddles, but it's not a real noticable difference.
- The DLX has a Poly finish, and the AVRI has a Nitro over poly finish. I don't think there is any real noticable difference in either.
- The DLX has a shielded paint in the body cavity. I line both my DLX and my AVRI with copper foil, which I think works better than the shielded paint anyways.


Ok, wow, this is alot of differences. Ok, that does justify a thoughtful and educated decision here.

Thanks for all this, as I will be thinking about this now.

Hey, one thing you don't know about me yet that may help, is, I got really small hands. They always screw with me when playing the keyboards, but I learned, and can do it. So, I am mentioning this because I am wondering if one guitar is better than the other for guitarists with small hands ? Sounds like maybe the '57 AVRI is better for small hands cause the neck radius is smaller ? Or no, does it actually make it harder because if the neck is skinnier, then the strings seem like they might be too close to each other and a beginner may always get all jumbled up with that ?

Also, would there be any reason to throw the normal American Standard Strat in my decisions ? Or is it just not cool ? One of my friend was explaining to me that he likes less going on in a guitar. All that extra stuff (tremolo, S-1 switch, etc..) is just more circuitry for the signal to go through and more ways to throw your tone off. Also said sometimes even know to throw you out of tune sometimes...or more, or something like that. So he recommends the most simplest, no thrills, no bells, no whistles guitar (then do the cap and after market pups to that)... -- any truth to this ?

If so, then to me, I may narrow it down to a American Standard Strat vs a '57 AVRI. No ?


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:50 pm
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Infa Red wrote:
Also, would there be any reason to throw the normal American Standard Strat in my decisions ? Or is it just not cool ? One of my friend was explaining to me that he likes less going on in a guitar. All that extra stuff (tremolo, S-1 switch, etc..) is just more circuitry for the signal to go through and more ways to throw your tone off. Also said sometimes even know to throw you out of tune sometimes...or more, or something like that. So he recommends the most simplest, no thrills, no bells, no whistles guitar (then do the cap and after market pups to that)... -- any truth to this ?

If so, then to me, I may narrow it down to a American Standard Strat vs a '57 AVRI. No ?


Well, now you have asked a completely different question. First I would say that almost all stock Strats (that don't have the S-1) have virtually identical components (vol pot, switch, tone pots, cheap tone cap). If you were to open up your choices to guitars in different price categories, then your choices are much, much broader.

Read my post at the bottom of the page: http://www.fender.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30264&highlight=

Essentially someone asked what the difference were between the Classic 50's and the 57 AVRI. The bottom line is that you get what you pay for. But, does that mean that the more expensive guitar is always 'better'. Well, in my opinion, if you were willing to invest a few dollars into a higher end MIM guitar, you could come up with a far superior playing guitar than an off the rack American with enough money left over to buy a spare MIM guitar to hang on your wall for giggles. Part of what you're paying for in an American series guitar is saying you own an American [fill in the blank]. I own 2 MIM Strats and 4 MIA Strats. I would be the first to tell you that I have WAY more equipment than talent. But I am also a old fart that is trying to spend every last cent of my two son's inhereitance before they can get it.

In my post, I just used the Classic 50 as an example, but you could throw any decent MIM Strat and still come up with money to spare (not the MIM Standard; I've just seen too many variations between guitars. But every MIM Classic, DLX or Road Worn I've picked up has been consistently decent).

Hope I didn't mix you up too much; but you opened up a can of worms.


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Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:38 pm
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pcheng wrote:
Hope I didn't mix you up too much; but you opened up a can of worms.

You didn't mix me up at all. I am following you. And I understand the approach you talk of. Another small thing you should know about me, is I am kind of a collector type guy too, so I do like things either "of value" or "going to go up in value". Not like a nut job collector. I am a musician FIRST. But a small part of my decision in buying things is always about the collector side too. So I would say, I will stick to a american made fender. Although I completely know you are right about building a better playing guitar from a MIM one. Cars are the same way. I seen a Smart Car roast a stock Ferrari cause it was super done up. And at about 1/100th of the cost of the Ferrari.

Same theory really.

So, what about this question I never heard a answer from:
Infa Red wrote:
Hey, one thing you don't know about me yet that may help, is, I got really small hands. They always screw with me when playing the keyboards, but I learned, and can do it. So, I am mentioning this because I am wondering if one guitar is better than the other for guitarists with small hands ? Sounds like maybe the '57 AVRI is better for small hands cause the neck radius is smaller ? Or no, does it actually make it harder because if the neck is skinnier, then the strings seem like they might be too close to each other and a beginner may always get all jumbled up with that ?

Any thoughts or knowledge to drop on that one ?


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