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Post subject: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:09 am
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What does laminated top back and sides actually mean? Is there a feature or video anywhere that will explain to me how Fender laminate their woods and what woods they use (for acoustics that is, I understand how it's done in solid bodies).

I've been playing accoustic guitar for over 50 years, though I've only bought two new guitars in the last 45 years (Guild & Martin). Now to help me cope with increasing problem of a degeneration of my left hand I've bought a Fender Ron Emory "Loyalty" parlor (shorter scale, lighter strings - easier for me to play).

It's a diamond at the price. A great marriage of Fenders industrial production technique, quality control and the stuff they've learned about accoustics in the last 20 years. Great job Fender/Ron. Only the C#2 sounds dead... but that's for another post.

I love the sound, and the projection really belies the size, so I was very surprised when the shop told me it was a laminated spruce top and laminated mahogany sides and back. Until that point I was expecting to be told it was a €500 guitar. But laminate is fine by me. The sea is at my door and laminated means I can just keep it handy on a guitar stand for playing any time of day, which I do.

After purchase I let it settle down for a few weeks, in a fairly stable environment 19-21C and 58/60% relative humidity. Then I checked the metrics (all perfect) and set the neck relief (a tad under 5/1000 inch at the 6th and 7th frets). All brilliant.

In the process I noticed a "window" in the upper endgrain of the sound hole. The black finish (for the sunburst look) had been scraped away over about 15mm along the edge of the soundhole. I'm guessing this was done at the factory as it's also oversprayed with clear lacquer.

So here's the fist puzzle. Using a tool that both illuminates and magnifies the wood, I can clearly see the end grain. I have my own worshop and have always worked with wood - especially for the last decade when I've worked on a number of restoration projects of objects made in wood - so I'm saying this doesn't look laminated it looks solid. Now it doesn't compare to the fine even grain of the (Engleman?) spruce on my Guild but it doesn't look laminated either... so question one, what does "laminated top" actually mean?

At the same time I noticed that the "chatoiment" (the sparkling) of the mahogany type wood of the inside of the upper mid bout (top of the waist) had a distinctive "rift sawn" pattern (resulting in regular bands that cause the chatoyant effect), that are identical to the pattern on the outside at the same place.

Carefully inspecting the rest of the sides and the back (also beautifully mirrored) I observed the same grain figure in the same (measured) spot on both the inside and outside of the guitar body.

So I'm really confused. So to question two: Does this mean that a single piece of wood has been plain sawn, presumably in large sheets, presumably paper thin, and a cheaper wood inserted in between, and the whole thing laminated, (with careful attention to the grain registration) prior to the backs and sides being cut from it. Is that what happens?

Can anyone enlighten me. Should I expect to see the same grain pattern on the inside and the outside of the back and/or sides if it's a laminate? Assuming it is, I'd have to say it's a remarkable achievement by Fender it's an exceptionally well engineered instrument and tone (timbre) should give it great appeal. It deserves to be a classic.



...scrybler


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:08 am
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Sort of a fancy name for plywood. Not automatically a bad thing.


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:52 am
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:D lol... well not really, otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question. But thanks for responding.

I was hoping for a more in depth response from someone who might understand Fender's manufacturing techniques....

... because after another close look, I can't see how this Ron Emory "Loyalty" is in anyway "laminated". It has all the appearance of a solid spruce top and solid mahogany back and sides.... not the best or best finished of either, but still solid wood with the tone and projection to match.

Anyone know?


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:28 am
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I tend to agree with Minnesotastrats, "laminated" really is just a nice marketing name for plywood.

The individual layers may be around .025"/0,6 mm (or less) thick, so it's hard to distinguish them by the appearances. Soundwise these modern days laminated ones are way ahead of the cheapo "mail order veneer guitars" of the past, plus they are relatively resistant to humidity/temperature changes.
Oh, some Guilds have laminated backs, too :wink:


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:59 pm
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A lot of times is High Pressure Laminate which is completely different from what you might build a shed out of.


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:19 pm
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Interestingly too, my guitar tech says that laminates have more flex than solid woods. So while the junctions between each layer might slightly dampen the sound, the guitar is less likely to crack due to temperature and humidity changes. He claims that he sees more solid wood acoustics come in for crack repairs than laminates.

Carefully chosen layers (think fine furniture) can add strength while reducing weight and yet you still have a beautiful visible finish. It's also a way to use perfectly good wood that doesn't have a first rate visible surface. As several posters have noted -- plywood essentially -- but there's nothing wrong with plywood when it comes to building.


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:43 am
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I can sympathize with you scrybler. I often look at details about things I care about. Sometimes I look too hard at some things. I've also played accoustic for many years off and on. Just bought my first elec guitar since high school. I've read about the different ways accoustics are made and why (supposedly) they result in different sound qualities. I'm also a do it yourselfer when it comes to around the house work and repairs so I know a little about wood. Not compared to a woodworker though. My in-depth understanding of a laminated accoustic top is it's a very thin piece of plywood. This is from reading, not my own experience. Of course "in depth" for me is pretty shallow. :) Other that this issue, how does the guitar sound? It has amazed me with a number of products how a less expensive way of making something sometimes produces the better product. When it comes to accoustics this may be the case. Electrics too I guess. If a laminated top produces the sound you want that you haven't found in a solid top accoustic the less expensive guitar is the one to buy. Also, as I'm sure you are aware, no two pieces of wood are the same. Even two guitars made of the same wood, even from the same tree may have a slightly different sound. Maybe the difference is so subtle that it takes a better ear than mine to hear the difference. Then you have the time factor of wood changing over the years. I also seem to remember accoustics made with what I always was a solid piece of wood through the thickness but it was actually two pieces of wood glued in the middle. The grain change can be seen running down the middle of the top from the neck to the other end of the body. My Ibanez may have the same thing on the back but it's hidden by the stripe of decorative inlay. But I never had a confirmed idea of the details of an accoustics makeup during manufacture. The main thing is the sound I can get out of it. On that note, I had a guitar once I wasn't really happy with the sound. Then a more (much more) skilled guitarist played it and it sounded great. To my dismay I had to stop blaming the guitar. :)

I had a Sigma accoustic which I understand is Martin's less expensive models that was stolen from my car in Nashville. Talk about mad! Don't Nashville already have enough accoustic guitars???! :) Anyway, it had a laminated top but sounded great. I then replaced it with a higher quality (supposedly) Ibanez. It sounds great too. I still have it because I haven't been to Nashvill. :) It has a solid top, gold plated tuning pegs, nice decoration around the hole, very nice pre-amp which makes amplification nice. But, do I like it more than the Sigma? I couldn't say.

Jack


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:55 am
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fenderfan wrote:
A lot of times is High Pressure Laminate which is completely different from what you might build a shed out of.


You are right you wouldn't build a shed out of High Pressure Laminate as Formica is an example of such. Unless a version called "Truwood" which does include a decorative timber veneer HPL is made up of layers of paper bonded with a resin.

Timber veneer is cut with a knife, either by rotating the log against the blade, generaly used for plywood, or by slicing the log for decorative veneers. As such (subject to species) veneer is seldom thinner than around .75mm when cut as it is otherwise too thin to hold together and this only decorative facing veneers. Structural veneers will be thicker.

The stripey apearance prevelent in mahogany is relative to the grain stucture and can be seen in solids (subject to type). West African Mahogany can be particularly notable in this respect and difficult to work in the solid as the stipes are caused by opposing grain.

For guitars, noting that a solid timber is deemed best accousticly , it is unlikely more than three stuctural layers will be used. This might increase to 5 layers in total if a thin facing decorative veneer is applied. In this case a "ballancer" veneer of comparable thickness will be applied to the reverse.

Many layers would be detrimental as the adhesive bonding the layers would have more impact on the sound than the timber itself.

Comments that you can't see the layers could be that the core layer is thicker than the facings, back and front, and the edge of these is less apparent due the beveled edge.

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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:40 am
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Just because a guitar is a laminate, doesn't mean it's crap. My DG-60 is a laminate and since I bought it last March, it's held up very well. Laminates from what I've heard, are actually more suited to weather changes than solid tops are.


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Post subject: Re: What does "laminated" actually mean?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:37 am
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jeffo46 wrote:
Just because a guitar is a laminate, doesn't mean it's crap. My DG-60 is a laminate and since I bought it last March, it's held up very well. Laminates from what I've heard, are actually more suited to weather changes than solid tops are.


It is quite interesting that instrument making is perhaps the only field where such thin timbers are used in solid form. In every other situation a laminated consuction would be stronger and more stable.

I can only assume that it is the added rigidity of a cross ply board structure that that makes it accousticly less desirable. In every other respect it would be better.

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