It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:48 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:45 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:31 pm
Posts: 3


No idea if this has been posted before but it's directed at all you Fender snobs :wink: out there. This is a blind testing by a professional musician and guitar designer and the owner of one of the biggest family owned music shops in the UK.


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:16 am
Offline
Amateur
Amateur
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
But they missed out testing the most basic function of the electric guitar...that is -plugging it in! There's a very noticable difference between USA hand wound pick ups to the cheaper production line jobs! Still, even that considered, the first guy got 4 out of 4 right and the second guy got half right...that's nothing drastic. If you somehow believe that you don't get what you pay for when you spend a higher amount on a USA made Fender then I'm afraid you're getting mis-led somehow! Sorry! The higher quality of a USA job can be seen in the attention to details...eg, the wood quality (type & number of pieces), the bridge quality (steel or brass?), the neck (bi-flex or truss rod), the pickups (hand wound / noiseless / vintage / standard, etc)...and everything basically. Plus, in terms of money, a USA made Fender will more likely hold it's re-sale value a lot better than one made elsewhere. So in a way, I look at my USA fenders as a bit of a fun investment that i can play but also not lose much on them if I had to sell. Win, win!!
:-)

_________________
"A monkey dressed in silk is still a monkey no less" - Rodriguez


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:54 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 11:42 pm
Posts: 11
That's all very well to say (that the USA, much, much more expensive guitar is "better"), but if you look carefully at the video, they both had a difficult time deciding between the most expensive, Custom Shop guitar, and the cheapest Squier CV. The first man thought, on handling and playing the CV that it was the Custom Shop one, but changed his mind after feeling the label; the second man just got it wrong, period. He declared the CV to be the Custom Shop guitar, and what's more telling, he claimed the Custom Shop guitar to be the CV. Now, they did not plug in, grant you, but if they did, they would still have had a difficult time deciding, as the CV sounds very close to the Custom Shop (and Vintage 52 reissue, for that matter). And, what the shop owner said is so true: our eyes, coupled with being told the expense and the model, lead us to erroneous assumptions, based purely on expecting a $5000 guitar to play 10 times better than a $500 guitar, when that is just not the case. This has been the story ever since the CVs came out: they are so well built, and sound so good, many videos and blind comparisons have shown the same results as here. Fender, I think, although badging the CV a Squier, did not realize just how good the guitar was going to turn out. I'm seeing more and more of these guitars on stages in the USA and Canada, so unless one is buying for an investment, the CV is clearly the better buy.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:55 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:53 am
Posts: 30
This is an age old debate; Squier vs. Fender, Epiphone vs. Gibson. No amount of talk is going to change some guys minds but here is my 2 cents worth.
I have been playing for 30+ years; played in many bands during that time. When I began playing we didn't have the acess to so many guitars as we do today. If you wanted a decent playing guitar you had to go with a USA fender or Gibson.
In todays world, while theres still no question that USA is better " built ", you can get some great sounding, well built guitars from overseas.
I look at it as what am I getting for my money. Sure, a Fender Standard model is better built, but is it 3-4 times better than a CV; not in my opinion. I love the Tonerider pups in the CV, much better than the pups in the older Standard models. The Ping tuners are also top-notch. Drop a full size steel block in a CV and you've got a keeper.
As far as re=sell value, not many Standard models produced today are ever going to be " collectable ". You will get 50-60 % percent back on re-sale, same as you would a CV.
Lastly, unless you're good enough to be signing autographs, a CV is probably as much guitar as you need.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:53 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
Ok...I gotta throw my $.02 worth in as well...

Yes, it's an age old debate and NO, you will -NEVER- change the mind of the snobs, regardless of any facts, logic or evidence...my years on this forum have proven this more than adequately. I shall therefore rant on anyways :-)

There are (unfortunately) those who do believe "you get what you pay for" (more on that in a bit) while others have simply never even done so much as a fair and honest comparison. Some folks are under the HIGHLY mistaken impression that a more expensive guitar will simply make them a better guitar player. A great many others still simply view it as little more than a "fashion statement"...bragging rights...just another way of showing how much money they have to throw away. Regardless of the reason or rational (or lack there of), you'll never change their minds...they think the American instruments are somehow "better" so in their minds, they will always be that way.


With that said, this is my take... I think that Squier (and many knock-offs for that matter) get a bad rap because of issues regarding consistency. I have played (and own) some -excellent- guitars with the Squier name and I have played a few in my day that really wouldn't make a decent canoe paddle....sad but true. For example, I have a couple of mid 80's Japanese made Squiers and quite frankly, they have some of the best craftsmanship I have ever seen in my 30+ years of playing. Even the contemporary USA made instruments just do NOT compare...those mid-80's Japs are truly something special. Then I had a '93 Korean made Squier Strat that was...wow...what a piece of crap! LOL! VERY low quality laminate body, the original hardware was simply junk, the pickups were just aweful, etc., ad nausium. Even when compared with the other budget brand instruments from the 80's and 90's such as Memphis, Lotus, Cort, etc., that Korean Squier was just BAD. I think it's perhaps this lack of consistency more than anything that has given Squier a really bad reputation....anyone who would have played that Korean model could easily jump to the conclusion that Squiers are just junk.

Regarding new instruments there's also the fact that today, a great many of your guitar stores...particularly the larger chains such as Guitar Center, Sam Ash, etc., just do NOT do the setups on the less expensive instruments that they should. Yea, when a $1300 American Standard, let alone a Custom Shop instrument comes in the door, they'll run it past their tech to make sure it's A-1, good to go, but sadly, most of the instruments that go for $500 and less simply come in the door and go right on the display...often to get banged on by every weekend wanker who thinks he's a rock star. While this certainly applies to just about every guitar ever made, it particularly applies to Strats - how well the instrument has been set up (or not) in no way reflects the quality of the instrument. A $200 Squier that's been PROPERLY setup is -always- going to play BETTER than an American or CS that's been poorly setup.

That said, I think that a great many people also over-look that quality control has come A LONG ways over the years. I currently have 2 Squiers down in the collection, an '08 Standard Strat and an '09 Affinity Tele that, FOR THE MONEY are truly exceptional instruments to say the least. In fact I has purchased the Strat because it was simply one of the loveliest finishes I had ever seen on a guitar, Fender, Squier or otherwise! In comparison, while they are considered "vintage" now a days, I'm old enough to remember the 70's and the CBS era of American Fenders...they are a prized novelty now, but back in the day, they really couldn't give those suckers away! I remember walking into music stores back in the early 80's and seeing Mustangs and Jag's that were going for well under $100...because NO ONE wanted them! Just like Squier today, there was a perception back then that said ANYTHING made by CBS Fender...American or not...just had to be junk.

I also think a great many people totally fail to realize or understand that we do very much live in a global market economy these days. Think about it - are we REALLY supposed to believe that the guy down there in Baja, who loads those Strat bodies into a CNC machine 4 at a time is really any more or less of a "craftsman" than the guy just a few miles up the road, doing the EXACT same job on virtually the same equipment in Corona? REALLY??? In this day and age, with the obvious exception of Custom Shop, whether you buy an instrument that's made in China, Indonesia, Japan, Mexico or even the US, you are buying a mass produced guitar that was designed by Fender and created by people trained by Fender on Fender equipment to Fender specifications.

Now to address some specific comments here...

Quote:
But they missed out testing the most basic function of the electric guitar...that is -plugging it in! There's a very noticable difference between USA hand wound pick ups to the cheaper production line jobs!


Personally I would say this argument is flawed, if not irreverent. By your own logic, it suggests that the pickups are the ONLY contributing factor regarding the sound of a guitar. By this logic, you're insinuating that if you were to put a set of American Standard pickups...which I personally never cared for BTW...if you were to put these in a $200 Squier, you'd have virtually the same sound. If the sound is exclusively the result of the "hand wound" pickups, care to rationalize how that actually makes the American a better guitar? After all, one of the lovely things about a Strat is the ease with which one can change the pickups, regardless of the instruments origin. And if these pickups really are sooooo great, care to explain why so many people actually prefer Duncan's, EMG's or any of the MANY other brands and models of pickups out there? Seems to me this is a highly subjective argument at best...

If anything, I think playing the instruments unplugged is perhaps a BETTER evaluation of the individual instruments as the test becomes about the instruments themselves...how they feel, how they play, etc.. Pickups can be easily swapped out, but the feel is the true mark of the instrument's level of quality.

Quote:
Still, even that considered, the first guy got 4 out of 4 right and the second guy got half right...that's nothing drastic.


I have to disagree. The fact that both of the guys had to go "groping" at one point or another says something rather significant. The indecision alone says something. What's more is that particularly in the case of the first guy, he clearly knew the specific differences between the models...satin necks, hand rolled fretboard, etc., and he STILL had trouble deciding. Consider this; how many guitar players out there do NOT know these differences? If you were to run this blind taste test past a more significant number of players...say 50...and players that represent a good cross-section of skill level, I have a shiney penny that says when the test is finished, you'd have right around 50/50 on the right and wrong...the exact same percentage that could be attributed to "guessing".

The single point I would make here is that -IF- US made instruments, Custom Shop or otherwise, were genuinely as superior as you (and others) seem to suggest, that there would be no indecision or hesitation at all. -IF- the US models really were that much better, any given guitarist, relatively independent of skill level, should be able to pickup a given instrument and say "that's the better guitar"...but as we can see in this video (and I suspect there's a great many other examples as well), even with experienced performers, that's just NOT the case.

Quote:
If you somehow believe that you don't get what you pay for when you spend a higher amount on a USA made Fender then I'm afraid you're getting mis-led somehow! Sorry!


Wow...ok...let's start with an American vs. a Mexican Standard. Not even counting the fact that again these two factories that mass produce guitars are pretty much right down the road from each other and very likely share parts (as has been seen by a number of Fender models over the years), aside from the pickups and the hand rolled fretboard, would you care to elaborate on what difference there is that actually warrants DOUBLE the price tag when compared with a Mexican? Seems to be that the differences are actually rather subtle at best...a 2 point trem with "copper infused" trem block vs. a 6 point trem...from my experience if you slap a decent steel on the MIM trem you actually have a BETTER trem than the American (personally I don't care for those 2 points anyways). Seems to me they both use virtually identical hardware...same jack plates, same pickguards and plastic, same Schaller tuners etc.. In fact it seems to me that for that $500 for a new MIM Standard along with $200 - $300 for some upgrades (such as pickups and trem block), you have a comparable quality instrument and you're still a few hundred dollars ahead of the game. The same could be said for a Chinese made Squier Standard...for that $230 for a new instrument along with $200 for new pickups and another $50 or so for a new bridge, you could have a SERIOUS instrument there. So WHAT...exactly...is so special about US made...other than your own preconceptions...that suggests "they're worth what you pay for"?

I will, for now, forgo my comment regarding your suggestion that people have been "mis-lead" and how arrogant that is except to say that not all of us are dumbass kids - some of us DO very much know the difference.


Quote:
Plus, in terms of money, a USA made Fender will more likely hold it's re-sale value a lot better than one made elsewhere.


Again...just wow. Let's do some basic math here... American Standard Strats currently retail for $1300 (actually $1299.99 but we'll skip the penny) and after looking at Guitar Center, Craigslist and Ebay, a fair average for a used American Standard is around $800...a few are higher but many can be found for as little as $600 or lower. That makes a 38.5% depreciation on the value of the instrument. In comparison, a Squier Standard which retails for $230 will typically sell for around $150 used (again using the same sources as a reference). By my math, this is only a 34.7% depreciation. Those numbers would seem to suggest that the Squiers actually keep their value BETTER than their American counter-parts. What's more is that some older Squiers, many of which went for as little as $100 to $200 brand new, can often be found today for around the same price as what they sold for originally, where as the greatest majority of American made instruments from the late 80's and up, tend to suffer from SOME degree of depreciation.

Numbers don't lie, so PLEASE enlighten me...other than your own bias about these instruments, how, EXACTLY, does a USA made Fender hold it's resale value "a lot" better? If you're going to make such an erroneous statement, I ask that you please substantiate it...

(Seriously...what was that above about trying to mis-lead people?)



I'm sorry but it seems there are some VERY poorly thought out arguments there.


Quote:
I have been playing for 30+ years; played in many bands during that time. When I began playing we didn't have the acess to so many guitars as we do today. If you wanted a decent playing guitar you had to go with a USA fender or Gibson.


Ok...while I do, to some small degree, understand your point, I too have been playing for over 30 years now. In fact, I first started playing back in '69 when I was only 4 and after a youthful hiatus, picked it up again in '83 and have been playing ever since. With that said, yea, there was A LOT of crap that came out over those years as far as budget instruments went...however...not ALL of it was crap. Back in the 70's for example, Tokai (as just 1 example) came out with some very lovely, VERY playable knock offs and even in the 80's, companies such as Hondo and Cort put out some very decent instruments and I've even played the occasional Kay or Harmony that really wasn't too bad at all. Hell, I still have my old Memphis LP...freaky pickups, but great neck! This doesn't even include the other quality brands thru those years such as Kramer, Rickenbacher, Ovation...even Epiphone and Yamaha, etc.. So that said, how do you qualify the last part of that statement, "if you wanted a decent playing guitar you had to go with...". While I will admit that there are better instruments and a better selection of inexpensive instruments today, seems to me there were plenty of "decent playing", if not reasonably professional instruments back in the day.

Quote:
In todays world, while there's still no question that USA is better " built "...


I'm not trying to be rude here but on the one hand while most of your comment sounds as though you're trying to defend Squier, it also sounds a bit as though you're trying to pander to the snobs as well. As I said earlier in my somewhat cumbersome rant here, I've seen some Japanese made instruments that simply blow the American's right out of the water, so in light of my earlier statements, particularly regarding a global market, I have to ask; how would you qualify "better built" simply based on where it was made?


Quote:
I look at it as what am I getting for my money


This I agree with whole-heartedly. When comparing various Squier models with various US Fender models and even various non-US Fender models (Mexican, Japanese, Korean, etc), there are some differences...and a few are moderately significant (such as bridge quality and pickups). My issue is...and always has been...do these differences truly justify the drastic difference in price? Do they really warrant this whole insane notion that you somehow "get what you pay for" as others keep suggesting when it's obviously just not true ? Changing pickups and a bridge are pretty straight-forward DIY upgrades and even for those who prefer the beveled frets and hand-rolled fretboards, these are things that can be accomplished by a decent luthier for a reasonable price.




I will admit that at the end of the day, I'm just a guitar player...I enjoy creating and playing music. Give me a decent instrument, let me play and I'm happy. That said, I simply can't understand why someone would be inclined to spend sooooooo much more for an instrument simply based on their perception of where it was made. That just seems horrifyingly wasteful to me. In my mind, how well the instrument plays and how it sounds are just FAR more important issues to consider. I'd rather have a quality instrument that's affordable and spend the difference on something more useful (like an amp or even a months worth of groceries!). I just can't fathom spending $500 to $800 or more on an instrument just for the sake of saying "I have an American guitar", particularly when there's no real advantage to it...that just doesn't make sense to me (and I -hope- it never does!).

Anyways, to come full circle here, while I enjoyed that video, unfortunately it's unlikely to convince few others. As someone once said, "You just can't fix stupid...".


Just my $.02 worth...keep the change :-)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:28 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 1307
That's at least 4 cents worth. :)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:22 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 19025
Location: Illinois, USA
GTG wrote:
That's at least 4 cents worth. :)

:lol:

_________________
you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:17 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
GTG wrote:
That's at least 4 cents worth. :)


What can I say - I type 80 wpm 8)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:59 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 19025
Location: Illinois, USA
lomitus wrote:
GTG wrote:
That's at least 4 cents worth. :)


What can I say - I type 80 wpm 8)


Amazing, I can do 20 wpm with huge effort :lol:

_________________
you can save the world with your guitar one love song at a time it's just better, more fun, easier with a fender solid body electric guitar or electric bass guitar.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: Comparing a Squier with a Custom Shop....blind testing
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:20 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:53 am
Posts: 4240
This whole topic makes my heart go 166 bpm...


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: