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Post subject: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:59 pm
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Hello, I have an Stop Dreaming, Start Playing! My question is as this guitar will NOT hold a tune longer than 24hrs, should I spend the money on upgrading, and what would I need?

Or just dump it for $100 to a kid and bite the bullet an get a real Strat?

I am new to guitars and recently purchased an ES175, and would like that same quality in my Fender.

Thanks for any advice and tips from the experienced.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:40 pm
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This is going to happen with a real cheap guitar. I avoided every 'package' guitar I saw. Which was easy - being a lefty, there weren't any.

Squiers and Epi's at this end are patchy for quality, and many people report Bullets and Affinity's can be crap.

You don't 'need' a Fender. I got a chinese no name Tele as my first guitar last year. $350 and it played really nice and simply refused to go out of tune. Squier's Classic Vibes get completely opposite reviews to the cheapest Squiers, so it might be worth looking into those. A used Mex Fender is another option.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:41 am
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I suggest you have the guitar setup proerly, many things can cause it to go out of tune quickly, and are pretty much all covered by a setup. This happens to more expensive guitars too if you don't set them up right.

Dumping it on some unsuspecting kid isn't really the answer as you will probably be wasting some poor kids pocket money, and he will have the same unhappy first experience as you. If you purchased the guitar in a shop take it back see if they will do you a deal on a setup. If you got it online then sorry to say that is luck of the draw, and a setup wiil almost certainly be in order. Normally a setup will cost around 50-60 dollars or pounds.

Or you could give it a go yourself, which is something i recommend every guitarist learns to do. Take a look at these 2 guides, they seem daunting at first but once you get the hang of it it doesnt take long to setup your guitar.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... aster.aspx

http://www.fender.com/en-GB/support/art ... -to-guides.

I hope this is helpful

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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:04 am
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alfunkz wrote:
I suggest you have the guitar setup proerly, many things can cause it to go out of tune quickly, and are pretty much all covered by a setup. This happens to more expensive guitars too if you don't set them up right.


Cheap guitars will usually have less or poorer tolerances though, it just might not respond much, if at all, to setting up.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:34 am
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my point is the op is new, and the guitar probably hasn't been setup anyway, theres no point shooting down a cheap guitar based on the fact that some have been known to be defective. Fact of the matter is even at the lower end squiers have improved dramatically of late and with a few tweeks are decent guitars.

I say try a setup first before you go scrapping a guitar that just needs a little work, its the first thing that should be done to any guitar, and besides if it is new its covered by warranty, so if a setup fails to cure the problem then you are entitled to repairs or replacement under warranty.

No disrespect but telling a new player that a guitar wont tune up just because its cheap is poor advice think back to when you started you would probably have listened to anyone who had an answer, i know i did. I understand that you are probably sharing from your experience, but i had a few entry level guitars when i first started and they are where i cut my teeth in both playing and learning how to repair guitars.

Whatever happens the negative can be turned into a positive here.

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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:11 am
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I didn't say it 'won't' tune up, but the possibility it won't get much better is one to consider.

I'd take it to the store and try and get a half decent setup for free, rather than a pro one, and spending a quater of what the guitar is owrh on that.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:02 pm
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i have the same guitar, only older.
I put a set of new strings on it > Fender Super Bullets,
and after I stretched the springs out a couple times as directed, it's been sounding fine.
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I'm keepin mine no matter what...i'll hang it on the wall someday, when i cant play anymore...
D.

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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:59 pm
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So, let's review. Best thing to do would probably get a setup, stretch out the strings, and see what that does for you.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:05 pm
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Thank you everyone, I will go strings and springs self tune up for now, and I won't dump it on any kid, I will trade it in when I get my new amp and likely tele. All great idea's thank you.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:10 pm
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I hope it works for you.
$10- for new strings aint a bad investment..

D.

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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:57 pm
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A lot of things besides set up and things like that can put a guitar out of tune also. Like variances in temperature. If you are playing with the same set of strings that it came with I would go and get a set of Fender Super Bullet .009 strings. Change the strings, tune up and then stretch them the next day. Make sure that you are putting on the strings right, and not overlapping the winds. You may have to stretch them a few times.

A good set up will include a new set of strings. I take my guitar to the same shop I have been using for awhile to do all of my work. They charge $45.00 for a set up plus the cost of the strings.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:47 am
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Ok, these are as always, my own personal opinions...PLEASE take them as such.

"My question is as this guitar will NOT hold a tune longer than 24hrs"

I gotta say, if your kid is playing that guitar for 24 hours at a stretch...man that's some SERIOUS endurance! LOL!!!

Ok...the first thing you need to understand about ANY guitar, regardless of price, make or model is that A GUITAR IS NOT A PIANO! The tuning on a guitar is NOT simply "set it and forget it" as it is with many other musical instruments. Because of various things such as temperature and humidity and such (as already mentioned), not to mention the nature of wood and steel strings, even a high end guitar may need to be tuned/retuned several times during a single session. In my own case for example...I live here in Northern Ohio and my guitars are typically down in my basement studio where the temperature is a pretty average 60 degrees. This coming Saturday my band is playing a gig, so those guitars are going to be going out to a cold minivan (the ambiant outdoors temp has been averaging around 30 degrees this week), riding for a couple of hours to the gig in a van that IS going to warm up (if you think I'm driving without the heater on, your nuts! LOL), then they're going to go thru the outdoors parking lot of the club where we're playing and into a much warmer bar. After that they are going to be played by a warm body of aprox 98.6 degrees...and this doesn't even account for humidity factors (or lack there of at the moment). Yes, those 2 or 3 guitars I take with me -ARE- going to be out of tune! I will likely retune after I get setup, check the tuning again when we start playing, probably check it 2 or 3 times thru the first set, then check it again between sets! I may make as many as 12 to 15 subtle tuning adjustments thru the course of that 3 our gig, regardless of which guitars I'm using (which for this next show will probably be 2 of my Mexicans and my '87 Squier E-series). Even when those instruments are parked down in the studio, I will usually tune just before practicing and will check that tuning 2 or 3 times and adjust as needed. Understand...it's simply the nature of the beast!

Secondly, while I mean no offense to my esteemed colleague Drubbing there, blaming such issues on a "cheap guitar" is simply nonsense. Unless there is something physically wrong with the instrument (such as a twisted neck or loose hardware or something), there's simply no reason that even a $120 Squier Bullet shouldn't hold it's tuning fairly well (within consideration to the conditions mentioned above)...-if- it is setup properly. I've owned a couple of Bullets as well as several cheap knock-offs/clones over the years...including a few such as an Affinity Tele, 2 "Squier Strats", etc., that I own now (along with my Standards and other guitars of various make and lineage)...all of which hold their tuning just fine because they were setup properly. As others have already mentioned, the key to decent stability with a guitar is first and foremost in the setup of the instrument. Within that, the #1 thing that causes tuning issues (especially for newbies) is how those strings are wound on the tuning pegs. Even among many seasoned pros, it's amazing how many people simply do NOT know how to properly wind their strings on the tuners! A fact of life concerning guitars; if it's poorly strung, you -WILL- have tuning issues, regardless of the price/quality of the instrument!

With that, also concerning setups is string gauge...another area that MANY people simply over-look. If the string gauge has been changed to a higher/thicker string (a great many people prefer .010's over the .009's that come from the factory on most guitars), those nut slots need to be refiled a bit, otherwise they are going to have a tendency to "pinch" the strings and thus create tuning issues. Likewise, a guitar that has been properly setup for .010's or even .011's where someone has put .009's on is going to be prone to fret buzz. It's not a reflection on the quality of the frets, it means the strings are sitting too low in the nut!

Those two factors alone...proper string winding and proper nut filing doesn't even address the others issues involved with a proper setup. Next we have intonation...if those bridge saddles are not correctly set, the guitar WILL be out of tune with itself...period. Again, this has nothing to do with an inexpensive instrument, it's the nature of guitars. Then with particular regards to a Strat, extra attention usually needs to be payed to how the bridge is setup along with neck relief (truss rod adjustments). Remember that from those tuning posts, right down the the springs on the back of the tremolo, it's all "connected" and what affects one thing is going to affect everything else!

Now all of this aside, there's still one more thing I would like to add here...a brand new guitar is also going to be rather prone to tuning and setup issues, simply because it's "new". There are a few things here to consider. First and foremost, while yes, every guitar sold under the Fender and Squier names are setup at the factory, you need to remember that after it's been setup, it has been shipped and often reshipped before you even see it. It's been subject to various temperature and humidity extremes and all the glory that goes along with shipping in general...I've actually seen running boards for a pickup truck bent at a 90 degree angle by a UPS driver! What's more is that most guitar shops (and particularly magazines/catalogs/online purchases) almost never do a setup on a new instrument when it comes in the door! With places such as Guitar Center and Sam Ash...your BIG VOLUME stores...those instruments come in the door and go right out on the floor. Typically they don't even tune them! Then those instruments are subject to all manor of yutz's...what we often refer to around here as the "weekend wankers". And this doesn't even account for the nature of wood either. Yea...sure those necks and bodies are "kiln dried" but in some cases it can actually take years for that wood to really properly "settle in".

And there are still other factors that affect the tuning stability of a guitar! The age of the strings for one. This is another thing that just never ceases to amaze me - a lot of newbies never even consider changing their strings until they actually break one...and then they only replace the string they broke instead of replacing the whole set! Another fact of life with guitars; old/worn strings will NOT hold tune, regardless of the quality of the instrument they are installed on. In my case, yes, I'm a working musician and as such, I typically try to get between 1 and 3 hours of practice in a day. That practice time is typically split between 3 or 4 guitars. On those guitars, even using a decent string lube (I'm currently using Dunlap 65), I'm still changing those strings...and setting up those guitars...on average of twice a month! A good rule of thumb is that ANY time you change the strings, the setup should be checked and adjusted as needed. And on any guitar that is played regularly/daily, changing those strings at least once a month is a good place to start.

So with that, I would reiterate my first comment there; A GUITAR IS NOT A PIANO. Think of it more like an automobile...and a performance automobile at that. If you fail to change the oil and antifreeze, put new spark plugs in and do a tune up or purchase new tires occasionally, you WILL have issues...period. Same thing goes for guitars. Changing strings regularly (and properly) and having the instrument properly setup is a fact of life for a guitar player...it goes with the turf.

Again this is just my $.02 worth...please use it only for what you feel it's worth.
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:52 pm
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lomitus wrote:
Ok...the first thing you need to understand about ANY guitar, regardless of price, make or model is that A GUITAR IS NOT A PIANO! The tuning on a guitar is NOT simply "set it and forget it" as it is with many other musical instruments. Because of various things such as temperature and humidity and such (as already mentioned), not to mention the nature of wood and steel strings, even a high end guitar may need to be tuned/retuned several times during a single session.

Understand...it's simply the nature of the beast!

Secondly, while I mean no offense to my esteemed colleague Drubbing there, blaming such issues on a "cheap guitar" is simply nonsense. Unless there is something physically wrong with the instrument (such as a twisted neck or loose hardware or something), there's simply no reason that even a $120 Squier Bullet shouldn't hold it's tuning fairly well (within consideration to the conditions mentioned above)...-if- it is setup properly.
Jim

Thanks for the courtesy. And you're right, I should clarify.

A really cheap guitar is more likely to go out of tune more easily, more often, and more noticeably so. Poor build will affect its ability to be set up well, ability to stay in tune at all, and its overall quality of sound. If you're getting all these issues, you've could have a problem guitar.

But you're right, every guitar needs tuning regularly. We've some big variations in weather here at present, so I check tuning if I hear something a bit off. It's not uncommon to find 2 strings slightly sharp or flat, depending on overnight heat or cold. But we're talking a small tweak of the tuners to right everything. It's a 5 second job. When the weathers consistent, so's the guitar.

Even with a good guitar, the harder you play, the more bends you use, and if you're a whammy bar addict, you're going to be tuning it during playing and practice.


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:32 pm
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Drubbing wrote:
A really cheap guitar is more likely to go out of tune more easily, more often, and more noticeably so. Poor build will affect its ability to be set up well, ability to stay in tune at all, and its overall quality of sound. If you're getting all these issues, you've could have a problem guitar.



I don't disagree with this in essence however I think it's important to establish that there -is- very much a difference between a "cheap guitar", as in an inexpensive one, and "poor build"...one doesn't automatically infer the other. Yea...sure...I once had a Cort copy of an Exporer...looked really cool but because the body was a cheap laminate, it cracked badly right at the neck joint. Didn't even need a whammy bar with that one...ya just pushed the neck back and forth! Talk about tuning problems... I also still have an old Rhythmline Tele copy that's not only a really oddball scale (like a 7/8's) the body couldn't even be considered a laminate...it's plywood...and cheap plywood at that (and don't get me started on those refrigerator magnets that passed for pickups!). That body, along with another laminate body from a Lotus Strat have long been my test beds for finishes and such...learned a lot about refinishing on both of those bodies. Actually even for a lam, the Lotus really isn't bad at all and I've been toying with slapping it back together...ended up being a rather cool tobacco burst after the last finish experiment. And yea, I have an old Synsonics out in the garage where the neck not only twisted like a pretzel, the body was actually made out of...yes...particle board!

So yes, there are certainly some very poor builds out there. That said, modern Squiers aren't typically one of them. Concepts such as Quality Control have come a LONG ways over the years. Even the lowly little Bullets actually have pretty decent necks on them and personally, I can't knock a basswood body. Yea, the tuners, pickups and bridge do leave something to be desired, but nothing 10 minutes at Guitar Fetish won't fix :-). And Affinitys are -great- instruments for beginners...again with a bridge upgrade and decent pickups, they tend to be very decent little instruments. With a few upgrades, I wouldn't hesitate to use one on stage or as a backup guitar. Actually the neck on my Affinity Tele is really sweet for such an inexpensive guitar...no issues there at all. I upgraded the bridge on that one to a string thru and did a custom pickguard for it out of acrylic. Nice little instrument...other than the danged thing sounds like a Tele! LOL! Yea, I've seen some older Squiers that can fall into the poor build category...some of the early 90's Koreans I've seen do fit that bill. That said, I also have an '04 Korean Lite Ash where the craftsmanship is truly superb! And certainly the MIJ Squier E-series of the mid-80's is rather legendary in their own right for a reason...in my not so humble opinion they even blow modern American Strats right out of the water as far as quality goes.

That all being said, I would again reiterate my previous comments in that regular tuning and proper setups simply go with the turf. Even a $4000 Custom Shop instrument that isn't setup right is going to have tuning issues. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's going to stay in tune if someone dinked with it...or even simply neglected it. Even the instruments I mentioned above tend to be more the exception than the rule...I haven't seen too many Squiers in my day that just couldn't be setup properly. A few of them may take a bit more patience than others, but typically that's more from neglect or ignorance (if not both) and not the quality of the build. When I got the Lite Ash mentioned above, the guy I got it from was basically using it as a wall ornament and yea...it was a mess at first. Took me a good three days just to get the truss rod back where it should be. After I got the neck reasonably straight, it took a while to get the bridge setup because instead of adjusting the neck relief properly, the guy kept doinkin' with the bridge trying to adjust "the action". H_ll...took me two hours just to polish the tarnish off the frets! Again though, none of this had anything to do with the build quality.

Personally I think this is one of the biggest reasons that inexpensive guitars tend to get such a bad rap. There's not only a lot of people that don't know how to setup a guitar to begin with, there's a lot who can't distinguish the difference between a bad guitar and simply a bad setup. They find or own something like a $100 "Strat" and because it won't stay in tune or simply isn't playable, they assume that it MUST be the guitar...it was a cheap guitar so there must be something wrong with it...and most of the time that's not usually the case.

So yes, I do agree with you that there certainly are some "problem guitars" out there. However I wanted to distinguish this difference for those who may mistake "affordable" for "poor quality" because there most certainly is a difference. A decent guitar doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg and just because it's inexpensive doesn't mean it automatically sucks...and a lot of folks really get the wrong impression about all of that.

Peace,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Losing Tune Often
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:58 pm
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I have a Squire Affinity mini, and that guitar is rock solid. If the larger affinities that you guys have is anything like the mini then it should just need a decent setup as suggested already.

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