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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:41 am
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Joe357 wrote:
So what are the differences? Are the pickups better quality? Or are they the same thing? Switches? What makes the Standard Fender (not something from the custom shop or the high end ones that do have obvious differences) worth ~3x what a Squier costs?


47, been playing a year, on my 2nd guitar, a Japanese 80s strat. I've formed a few opinions hanging round a lot of forums, and based on playing what I can, with the basic ability I have.

As pointed out by many - hardware on Squiers and cheaper guitars will be cheaper, and labour costs lower. My first guitar was a no name chinese tele and it was great for the money.

Go and play a $2000 custom shop Fender. Can you tell the difference? If you can, it is worth the extra cost to you? As a beginner, the only thing you really need is a guitar that sounds and feels good to you, and stays in tune. A good amp can help it along, or provide a lot of versatility with preset amp sounds and FX.

There is also a fair bit of snobbery, myth, hyperbole and plain BS on forums, and you have to decide for yourself what goes in which category.


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:25 pm
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Figured I would chime in. I'm 37 years old. Been playing guitar for 6 years now. I've owned over 20 guitars during this time. Don't judge..I get GAS..alot :lol: Anyways, I've owned Fender Strats and Squier strats and teles. I currently own 2 Squiers along with 8 other different brand and types of guitars.

Here's what I have learned. Play them all!!! Buy what you like! The Fenders have been MIM's. They were both good guitars. I just happened to want something different and didn't "love" them. The many Squiers..... well, each was different. Had a couple that I hated and thought were junk. Had a couple that were OK, but weren't what I wanted. Now, the two that I have presently,.... well, one is an 89' MIK E series strat. I LOVE the neck. It really feels good. The body is pressboard. :shock: Still love the guitar. Of course I changed out all of the electronics and dropped Semour Duncans in it and it really sounds good. It came with a Fender stamped bridge and it plays, and sounds wonderful.

My second Squier is a MIJ 87' with Fender pups and all new electronics. It's my #1 guitar. Greatest neck I have ever held and I've played some highpriced MIA's. I love this guitar and so does anyone who has ever played it.

I said all of that to say this. Beauty is in the ear and hands of the beholder. Is my MIJ better than all of the high priced MIA's? NO. There are some badass guitars out there made by Fender and I want some but my pocketbook is thin right now, but I know that I can play my MIJ anywhere and never have to worry about quality, tone or feel when I do. Learn to play with whatever you can get and as you learn, as you play different guitars, your ears and hands will tell you what you need to know and as you play through the years, you'll also learn quality.

Peace :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:13 pm
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Great to see I am not alone in the "picking this up late" club.

I'm 38 and started out just after New Years with my son's bottom of the line Epiphone SG and Drive amp. Had a blast picking things off of YT and hours on Rocksmith. Enough that I started to think that I wasn't completely horrible at it.

So... I purchased a Squier CV 60's Strat on Monday and will be picking up a used VOX100 from a friend this weekend. :D

As an Engineer by trade, what is exciting me almost as much as playing it is getting into the "science" of it. I am already looking at things I can mod on it. (Like the OP, my wife thinks I'm nuts.) The friend I am getting the VOX from HATES Strats with a passion. Let me correct that, he HATES single coil pick ups. He tried to get me into the LTD's that were at the store but the Squier just felt "right" in my hands. So he and I are discussing jamming a SC sized Humbucker into the bridge position. I told him I might want to learn how to play a little better first.

I got 4 lessons from the store so we'll see what the brings.

And as to the Topic of the thread. I did get to try out a MIM Strat at the store. I saw things here and there that were "different" but not for the jump in price and not at my level of ability. Plus the tobacco burst on the Squier is just gorgeous. 8)

Now back to read the other 5 pages of this thread....


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:55 pm
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So what is the cheap one and what is the higher quality? I'm 55 and a female, so no jokes about old dogs... I was told the Squier was an upgrade from the Starcaster. I like the guitar, action is great and sound/sound differential is great.


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:22 pm
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Barbara Heffernan wrote:
So what is the cheap one and what is the higher quality? I'm 55 and a female, so no jokes about old dogs... I was told the Squier was an upgrade from the Starcaster. I like the guitar, action is great and sound/sound differential is great.


Squiers are a cheaper line by Fender... so to some people, "Squier" means "cheap crap." But in fact, some Squiers are very good while others are kind of junky. So quality varies among Squiers also - and as the more knowledgeable folks have pointed out, proper maintenance and SETUP makes a world of difference with ANY guitar, and can make a cheapo work pretty well sometimes.

I have owned 4 Squier Strats... two were cheap matching blue Affinity Indonesia models (2000 and 2002), they weren't super, but not garbage. One is a very nice Squier Classic Vibe Stratocaster '60s, has to be the best Squier I've had my hands on. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/squier-classic-vibe-stratocaster-60s-electric-guitar

And the other is the one I'm trying to get more info on in the thread I recently started asking about Strat with no serial number prefix (see following link). http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=83573


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:23 pm
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Being an avid Shadows fan (as well as among others, Ventures, 60s style Instrumentals ) I bought myself a Squier Affinity plus amp starter pack and now after under 2 years can successfully murder 20 or so toons! I shall never achieve greatness but, Boy, am I having fun! I first played as a teenager but gave up as the Gibson cello bodied acoustic guitar I'd been given was hard to play, not knowing that the repaired fretboard gave it an action of about half an inch! Now at nearly 67 I wish I'd started a bit earlier like about 50 years or so. The Squier? Brilliant! Properly set up, it's a match for my cousin's Oriental fender Strat any day soundwise. Plus the Mustang II fakes any sound you want!


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:40 pm
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The main differences are the woods used the casting of parts for the guitar the finishes and things like that, Squiers use different woods that are available in the locations they are made in. They have cast metal parts while Fenders have molded parts which are stronger. Fenders have better overall finishes, to see for yourself open up the back panel of a Squier and a Fender Stratocaster, you'll notice several differences right off the bat.

Still Squiers are great to learn on and you can find them used for a decent price. I'd recommend sticking to the Standard Series, rather than the Affinity Series. You'll know the difference right away, the headstock on an Afiinity series says STRAT, or TELE. Where the headstock on a Standard Series reads Stratocaster, or Telecaster.

The Classic Vintage models are an even better choice and remember the higher quality of guitar you learn on the easier it will be too learn.


I can't say there is "snobbery" Fender Guitars are just overall better quality than Squiers are. You want to see "snobbery", get into the whole US versus Mexican argument. Then you'll see some real "sobbery"


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:44 pm
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[quote]So he and I are discussing jamming a SC sized Humbucker into the bridge position. I told him I might want to learn how to play a little better first.[/quote]

If you like the Single Coil sound then that is what to go for. You can always buy a Strat with a Humbucker in the bridge, called an HSS Strat. As far as upgrades... that's up to you.


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:06 pm
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Okies...I'm in the "getting in late" club here as well...but then I wouldn't be me if I didn't throw down my $.02 worth on this ever controversial subject! LOL! Also, While I'm addressing the OP's original question, I haven't' read the other comments and opinions here so please forgive me if I add anything redundant. These are of course simply my own personal opinions, based on my own personal experiences...as always, please use them only for what you feel they are worth.

Finallly...while I'm only going to address a few general questions here, I really don't feel like being a "productive member of society" today so I'm going to sit here and type. In otherwords, anyone planning to read all of this should probably go get another cup of coffee and a fresh pack of cigs! LOL!




Quote:
I was under the impression the "Fender" labeled instruments were "Made in USA" but when I picked up one at a local shop the other day I found "Made in Mexico" branded on it.


As I'm sure other's have generally alluded to in the 6 pages of comments posted, Fenders and Squiers both come in several models.

Fender labeled instruments have in fact come from all around the globe (as do Squiers). You not only have American and Mexican Fenders, there are in fact, Fenders from Japan and even Korea, etc.. The key point to realize here is that unlike the late 40's, 50's and 60's, Fender is now a global company with manufacturing facilities (or contracts with other facilities) all around the world. As I'm sure others have already mentioned, yes there tends to be a great deal of debate...in some cases rather heated debate...regarding issues such as "quality" regarding the origin of instruments, however the main thing to remember is that anything bearing the Fender (or even Squier) name on the headstock is typically made by Fender trained personnel, often on virtually identical equipment, to Fender specifications. Yes, some of this does vary from era to era and location to location...personally I find the instruments that came out of Japan in the mid-80's (which interestingly enough weren't actually made by Fender) to be some of the finest quality instruments to EVER bear the Fender/Squier names. The quality of workmanship that went into those instruments rivals even that American instruments made today. With this in mind however, there are a few significant differences between Fender's and Squiers, depending on the era and models being discussed.

Quote:
So what are the differences? Are the pickups better quality? Or are they the same thing? Switches? What makes the Standard Fender (not something from the custom shop or the high end ones that do have obvious differences) worth ~3x what a Squier costs?


First let's address body wood. I think I saw someone else mention that yes, typically the wood used in a given guitar body is often determined by the place of origin. American bodies almost always use Alder, the Mexican's currently use Alder but have used Poplar in the past, the Crafted in China models typically use Agathis, and some of the lower end Squiers have often used Basswood, etc.. Now there's a couple of things to remember here. Yes, the American snob crowd will typically swear up and down that Alder is the "superior" wood, however, back in the 50's, our Great Uncle Leo did NOT choose that wood specifically because of it's tonal properties. In the early days, Leo Fender and the boys chose Alder because it was reasonably plentiful in California in those days and it was easy to machine! I doubt Uncle Leo actually gave much thought to the tonal characteristics of Alder at all back in those days. In fact, had Fender of been an East Coast company back in those day, they likely would have used Poplar in those early instruments instead. In other words, yes Virginia, Alder was the "cheap" wood back then. Likewise, because it's used in the less expensive Squire Bullets and such, many people see Basswood as being some kind of inferior wood, but that couldn't be farther from the truth! There are in fact a number of instruments that have come out over the years that go upwards of $2000 - $3000 OR MORE that use Basswood...nothing cheap or inferior about it!

Another thing to consider when discussing "origin" and the difference in cost between various instruments also has to be that of labor. Putting issues such as snobbery and American pride on the shelf for the moment and not even considering the cost of materials, one of the single greatest factors is simply the cost of labor. While this is quite obviously a personal and rather subjective opinion, as I've said in numerous other threads, I do not believe for one moment that the Fender trained guy down in Mexico running those CNC machines that do the body routing is any less of a "craftsman" than the guy doing the EXACT same job on virtually identical equipment up there in Corona. If anything, the work ethic of most Americans typically SUCKS compared with other parts of the world! We like to make lots of money and we all think we have some god given right to full medical benefits, but we really do NOT like to have actually work for it! I'm sorry if that offends people's sensibilities, but it happens to be quite true. That said, you can also bet your bottom that the guy down in Baja doesn't make anywhere near the same salary as the American worker does...and those people over in China and Indonesia...you can bet they make considerably less! So yes, labor costs absolutely have a large effect on that whole cost equation. If an American Fender worker is making upwards of $20 an hour or more, you can bet the person doing a similar job making Squiers over in China is making less than 1/10th of that. Has NOTHING to do with quality or craftsmanship, just means the American workers get payed more.

Also regarding price alone, there is a -myth- that the American instruments are better...a myth often and frequently perpetuated by people on these very forums. Whether it's actually true or not and to what degree is actually rather irrelevant and here's why; for better or for worse, Fender is a BIG corporation with MANY years in this business and you can bet your bottom that they KNOW that some people will spend upwards of 2 to 3 times the money for an American made instrument, simply based on that myth and that preconception. It's simple economics really...your basic supply and demand. The folks at Fender -KNOW- there are people who will pay more for that American made instrument and thus they can get away with charging nearly double the price compared with a Mexican or Japanese made instrument and 3 to 4 times the price of a Chinese made instrument....it really has nothing to do with quality or craftsmanship or place of origin.

Now once we move beyond that, yes, there are some differences in hardware between Fender and Squier (and for that matter even between various Fender branded models and various Squier branded models), with some of these differences being a bit more significant than others (in my not so humble opinion). Tuners for example...not counting the "cheap" covered tuners found on Bullets and some of the older Squier models, most Squiers these days tend to use decent cast tuners. While this is certainly a personal opinion, yes, a Squier Affinity uses a different tuner than a Mexican and such, the difference however isn't that terribly significant. Honestly, a die cast tuner is a die cast tuner. The inexpensive Ping tuners that I've gotten off Ebay (often off Johnson's for some reason) and have used on a few various instruments do just as good a job at tuning the instrument and keeping the instrument in tune as those on my Mexicans. Here's the thing - most of the tuning issues and such that are often associated with "less expensive instruments" has little to do with the tuners as much as the setup of the instrument, including how the strings are mounted to those tuners. The sad truth of the matter is that even a lot of experienced players simply don't know how to wind strings properly on those tuning pegs! Seriously...any die cast tuner generally does a very good job as long as the string is wound correctly!

I will say that MANY Squiers do tend to use lesser quality bridge parts. If I have any gripe about Squiers, it's usually about the bridges. On models such as the Bullets, "Strats" and even the Affinities, as well as many of the less expensive Squiers of the past, you often find what's referred to as "pot metal" saddles. In comparison, Fender Standards (regardless of origin) as well as most vintage models, will use a stamped, bent steel saddle and if I'm not terribly mistaken, the Americans now a days use stainless steel. In this case, the saddles are one of the contact points of the strings and as such, the material used can make a difference regarding tone, sustain, etc.. Likewise, most of the Squiers typically use a thinner bridge plate as well. This in and of itself isn't THAT big a deal but it does mean that bridge plate will tend to wear faster at the contact points with the screws. There's also the bridge/trem block...most Squiers as well as most of the earlier Mexican Standards, used a half size zinc block which isn't that terribly conducive to sustain. Newer Mexicans have indeed switched to a larger high mass block and it's an improvement, but it's still not nearly as good as a steel block in most people's opinions (including mine). With that specific comment in mind, one of the beautiful things about a Strat is the ability to upgrade one! Even with something such as a Squier Affinity or Squier Standard, one can easily obtain a steel block from places such as Guitar Fetish for around $25 and the difference is like night and day!

The same goes for pickups. Yes, American Fenders, Mexican Fenders and Squiers all typically use different pickups. Personally I don't really care for any of them (although I have played a few newer Mexican's lately that weren't too bad). In that regard however, this is often as much a matter of taste as anything...personally I prefer Duncans and EMG's over just about anything Fender has ever offered. Likewise, as with setups, it's amazing how many folks simply don't have the height of their pickups set correctly. Even a $170 Squier Affinity can sound pretty decent with the pickup height properly set! With that said however, at the end of the day, "tone" is as much, if not more about your fingers and your playing style as it is about any particular brand of pickup, American, Mexican, Japanese or otherwise.

That said, as I'm sure others have also mentioned, stuff like switches and pots tend to differ as well. How significant this difference is however is again a bit subjective. Personally I own a number of Squiers at the moment and have owned several of various quality and lineage over the years. When it comes to something like a 1/4" jack, I have -NEVER- had a problem with one that was anything less than Switchcraft! LOL!!!!!! Yea...sure...some Squiers do use thinner wires and such and "in theory" this can affect the tone based on resistance, conductivity, etc.. Same goes for pots really. Again though, is it truly a significant difference or something that only my dog can really hear? Personally I find that just using a different value pot or cap makes a MUCH greater difference in regard to tone than the whole CTS vs. Chinese pot debate. Body shielding...YES...that makes a difference! The Korean Lite Ash Strat I currently have does have a fully shielded cavity and even though I really don't like the neck, even with the Duncan APS single coils, that sucker really is dead silent! On the other hand, I also have to say that even with the cheapest Strat I've ever owned, the noise from the single coils hasn't been so bad as to want to scrap the guitar or anything. Ok...sure...I have to turn off my computer monitor when I'm recording....so? Even -if- it were that much of a problem it isn't THAT hard to shield a guitar pickguard/cavity. In other words, again a great deal of this stuff really is more subjective than anything.

Now in the case of American Strats versus...well...everything else really, there are some "features" that some feel warrant the extra cost of purchase. American Strats have the "hand rolled fretboard edges"...something that never impressed me personally. They also use the 2 point trem systems similar to those on a Squier Standard, however I suspect that the Americans do use a higher grade steel as I've seen the Squier plates wear a bit on those two point trems. Again however, I've never been a fan of either. This is a personal preference but personally I prefer the vintage style 6 point trems, albeit with the metric spacing. In my 2003 Fender Frontline catalog, Fender also advertises the Americans as using staggered tuners, "thus reducing the need for a second string T"...which is rather ironic as none of my Mexi's have either staggered tuners OR a second string T! LOL! Whether a person is inclined to believe that such features REALLY warrants double, if not triple and quadruple the price of other similar instruments...such things are up to the individual. Personally I never bought it myself.

Likewise metric vs. vintage spacing is also another consideration. While there have been some Squier models in the past that have used the vintage spacing, most imports, regardless of origin, use metric spacing. It's not a huge hoopla of a difference to many people...personally I prefer the metric spacing I think primarily because despite being 6'2", I actually have rather small hands...the "modern C" shaped necks with the metric spacing seems to fit my hands perfectly. Which of course, leads me to my next comment(s)...

A great deal of this regarding guitars in general isn't so much a matter of brand or model or origin, etc., as much as that of personal preference! An older person who grew up with those larger, beefier necks of the 50's, 60's and 70's likely won't care for that modern C shape that I'm so fond of. Likewise a person with larger hands than myself is also likely to prefer a much beefier neck as well. There's nothing right or wrong about any of that and it doesn't make one brand or model of guitar/neck any better than another, it's just what a given individual prefers! In this case, while this tends to irritate the American elitists out there, I've been playing for over 30 years now and I -know- what I like...for myself, it's the Mexican Standards. Even priced the same, I would actually take a Mexican Standard over an American Standard because I like the way the Mexi's play and I like the way they feel. With that I would also add that I'm not a kid...I'm 47 years old, I own my own house, have 2 minivans and a Grand Am sitting in the driveway etc., etc.. In the many years that I've been playing, had I ever of found even a $4000 instrument that really curled my toes THAT much, I likely would have found a way to get it...I haven't. Perhaps it's because of my smaller hands and perhaps it's simply because I've played Mexican Strats for 18 of those 30+ years, to my hands, a Mexican Standard (particularly one with a nice maple fretboard) just feels "right". Doesn't mean it's right for everyone by any means...once you move beyond preconceptions, only experience and experimentation can really determine that for ANY individual.

So with all of that, I will wrap this little dissertation up. Yes, there are -some- differences between various models of Fenders and Squiers. While some of those differences are more significant than others, whether it warrants the various price points really is up to a given individual.

Peace,
Jim

(p.s. The -only- person too old to learn is simply the person unwilling to try!)


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:37 am
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i think they are both thesame. i owned a MIJ strat floyd rose and i recently bought my very first squier. and as what i have noticed, i think squier sounds even better.

but you know, it depends. my best advice is not to compare the two with your eyes. but close your eyes, and let your hands and heart decide.

the only difference is the price. squiers are cheaper compared to real fenders.


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:09 pm
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I have 4 Strats, MIJ Squier E5 model, MIA that has a HSS pickup configuration, a newer Squier that I've done work on the electronics and the pickups have been replaced, and my hardtail parts caster that has a CIJ neck on it. Judging by the feel and playability, the MIJ Squier has the best all around feel FOR ME. Next would be the Partscaster and then the modern Squier and MIA Start feel and play about the same TO ME.

See what I'm saying? Just because 1000 people like one thing doesn't mean anything if it doesn't work for you. You can change anything in these guitars to get the sound your after and build quaility isn't light years apart anymore. Whichever way anyone goes with what they buy, it's got to feel good to THEM!


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:49 am
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If Squier was good enough for Jeff, it's sure as heck good enough for me!


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:43 pm
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Hi Guys,

Just adding some more info in this three and rather than repeating everything I enquired and discovered, I will just add the link to my thread here.....

http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=87910

Keep on jammin!


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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:38 pm
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orangesunshine wrote:
the only difference is the price. squiers are cheaper compared to real fenders.


Wow.

Seriously, I can buy the "it isn't worth 3 times the price for me" arguments on this thread, absolutely. Everyone SHOULD have their own set of values placed on the differences between an American-made Fender product and an off-shore Squier. But to say the "only" difference is price is beyond reasonable.

Yes, I might fall into the "American-made snob" category I've seen in this thread... I own 3 USA Standard guitars. But I also agree that there's great value in some Squier models. I played a $399 Squier Classic Vibe Custom Telecaster yesterday and fell in love with it. Nearly bought it. But I also saw parts I would end up needing to upgrade, despite the great weight and feel and look and playability in the guitar that I liked. Cheaper pickups and pots particularly didn't sit well with me. And it doesn't take a genious to compare the fret edges between those on the CVC and any USA Standard to see where extra time and build attention to detail comes in, never mind the fact that the quality of woods and electronics adds to the better build. However, saying that, I would gladly admit that I enjoyed playing this CVC more than I did a $1900 Fender 52 Reissue that was parked beside it. That says a lot, but everyone's opinions and expectations are different.

_________________
2011 Custom Shop Custom Deluxe HSS Strat
2011 Custom Shop Custom Deluxe SSS Strat
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2013 American Deluxe Tele
59 Bassman 410, Blues Deluxe 410
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Post subject: Re: What are the actual differences between a Squier and Fen
Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:51 am
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Dunzie wrote:
orangesunshine wrote:
the only difference is the price. squiers are cheaper compared to real fenders.


Wow.

Seriously, I can buy the "it isn't worth 3 times the price for me" arguments on this thread, absolutely. Everyone SHOULD have their own set of values placed on the differences between an American-made Fender product and an off-shore Squier. But to say the "only" difference is price is beyond reasonable.

Yes, I might fall into the "American-made snob" category I've seen in this thread... I own 3 USA Standard guitars. But I also agree that there's great value in some Squier models. I played a $399 Squier Classic Vibe Custom Telecaster yesterday and fell in love with it. Nearly bought it. But I also saw parts I would end up needing to upgrade, despite the great weight and feel and look and playability in the guitar that I liked. Cheaper pickups and pots particularly didn't sit well with me. And it doesn't take a genious to compare the fret edges between those on the CVC and any USA Standard to see where extra time and build attention to detail comes in, never mind the fact that the quality of woods and electronics adds to the better build. However, saying that, I would gladly admit that I enjoyed playing this CVC more than I did a $1900 Fender 52 Reissue that was parked beside it. That says a lot, but everyone's opinions and expectations are different.


I agree with you, though I a not anyway close to being a guitarist, that's a bad statement. Some guys write without thinking at times, if that's the case no one would be purchasing Fenders. Quality might be noticeable, but how much of the lesser quality reflects lesser sound qualities especially to a beginner?

What I would agree with, is that a beginner might not need to buy an expensive Fender since a Squire's short comings might not be noticeable.

I would recommend that beginners learn on a cheaper guitar like the Squire like I did, then upgrade to a better guitar. Some might say do a one time purchase but I would go that route.

The Squire can be kept for practicing and the upgrade be used to play and be appreciated. From the research I have done about my Squire Standard Stratocaster, it's a great guitar in its class, no one had anything bad to say about it.

I am a far way from needing an upgrade to a US or Mexican built Fender, but I am sure I will appreciate the quality and finish of the guitar when that time comes

Keep on Jammin.


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