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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:02 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Hm, what's the point of a tap mode if you can tap in "normal" mode as well--since tapping is the same action as a hammer-on? I think on my YRG tap mode turns the tap response more sensitive and more limited in terms of attack response so it comes off smoother since it's hard to control your tap velocity from finger to finger.

And I guess in tap mode you don't want any falsies from hammer-offs (as your hammer finger comes off the string) so it turns them off.

You may have something there with a new dedicated midi controller--I'd like to think so. But for now, still not one guy in America has reviewed this as a midi controller, even though there are thousands and thousands out there.

I figure it's because Fender so buried their lead with this device being a midi controller that even midi guitar fans missed it.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:44 pm
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Just read the manual. Yikes. Zero adjustment for sensitivity, hammer-on/off values/ranges, nothing, zilch, zero, nada.

No control panel to tweak for your picking style. No wonder Fender barely mentioned the midi controller aspect: they never had any intention of supporting it correctly.

So some finger-picking guys like Jeff Beck and me are going to have many missing notes from UNDER-picking. And their velocity range will be from 0-40 max. And other Ted Nugent types will be peaking the sensitivity all the time at velocity 127. Zero dynamics.

And Fender supplies us with ZERO tools to adjust anything. Sweet. Way to waste $279 Fender!

I recommend apps like Midi Pipe to guys stuck in this midi hell, it will help adjust the sensitivity range to your VSTi and normalize out other aspects.

But you shouldn't have needed to to do that. It should be handled right in the guitar itself like the YouRock has it. Because if it isn't, the guitar itself will have dropouts, and never send the note-on command in the first place. Then you're screwed.

Thanks fer nuthin' Fender! This is starting to make the YRG look like a $4500 Z-Tar!


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:20 pm
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Not to say I told you so but.......

Their priorities were in-game pro-mode use, amp played guitar second, and midi because it's already being used, so let them play with it.

It gives you an excellent controller, a usable starter guitar, and a basic midi controller all at a low price. Any higher end in any of the fields would have priced it out of range for too many people.
I guess the reasoning behind not emphasizing it heavily as a midi controller is obvious now? They didn't want to build up expectations too much. Looks like it happened any way to a degree though.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:46 pm
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Very true, Gamer1st. Not to sound desperate, but I'm thinking this opportunity is too good for them to abandon altogether. Look forward to a Fender MIDI guitar with this technology in 2011. Different priorities, different demographic, bigger price tag.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:16 pm
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I'm in if they can take this core tech and take it seriously enough to support it with a control app and better hardware. Sell it for say, $599--no latency, clean, tweakable response. 1/4 the price of the cheapest Ztar.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:03 pm
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Musicmaster2 wrote:
I'm in if they can take this core tech and take it seriously enough to support it with a control app and better hardware. Sell it for say, $599--no latency, clean, tweakable response. 1/4 the price of the cheapest Ztar.

In that case, why wouldn't you just install Graphtech's Ghost Hexpander in a guitar you already liked (but didn't mind modding)?

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=2

You just have to figure out how to go from their 13-pin MIDI connector to the (I'm assuming) 5-pin MIDI connector for one of the RB3 MIDI controller boxes (PS3, Xbox, Wii). Unless someone has already solved that problem?

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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:03 am
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Because then you'd be back with all the latency problems inherent in a pitch-reading system. I'll stick to active necks from now on.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:55 am
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b3john wrote:
Musicmaster2 wrote:
I'm in if they can take this core tech and take it seriously enough to support it with a control app and better hardware. Sell it for say, $599--no latency, clean, tweakable response. 1/4 the price of the cheapest Ztar.

In that case, why wouldn't you just install Graphtech's Ghost Hexpander in a guitar you already liked (but didn't mind modding)?

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?CategoryID=2

You just have to figure out how to go from their 13-pin MIDI connector to the (I'm assuming) 5-pin MIDI connector for one of the RB3 MIDI controller boxes (PS3, Xbox, Wii). Unless someone has already solved that problem?



The reason that's not a better option is because it's just a Roland Ready pickup that requires another conversion box, either the GR system ($500 used) or the Axons in the same price-range. Fender is doing something different. The technology is self-contained with direct MIDI out. That's great.

Roland has created a 13-pin proprietary connector that other manufacturers have just accepted and rolled with. Not anymore.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:16 am
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Everyone seems a little negative about this product. I must admit that it seems a shame that Fender haven't really adopted the midi functionality of the guitar.

Personally though I still think it could be better than alternatives on the market. Anything which uses a hexatonic pickup is going to have latency. People say that this guitar wont register hammer-ons and pull-offs. But in my previous experiences with Midi guitars, this is something they all suffer from.

How long until someone puts up a video of someone utilising the midi ? I have seen from the videos that the string positioning is actually pretty accurate. But maybe the note on note off is not very good. I am still hoping that this could be a good midi controller for the price. I have played a You Rock guitar and find even that can be used to play finger picking things.

I would just prefer a midi controller with strings. It may not be perfect but you can always change the midi pretty accurately.

A lot of people on this thread have mentioned that it will be no good purely because of price. But lets be fair an active neck is an essential to make a good midi guitar. We can buy touch screen tablet devices pretty cheap now and they are very accurate. I expect that the neck will be a touch sensitive (Probably capacitance) and giving note values before you even have chance to pluck the relevant string. I hope someone develops a cheap Midi guitar. All the Roland ready stuff is pretty rubbish and technology has moved on from that.

I really cannot wait to see this working as a Midi guitar. Even if it's crap. I have been saying for years that this would be the best way to make a good midi guitar controller.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:09 am
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Unstable--

$300 for a decent MIDI guitar is ludicrously cheap. That's why we're excited about this. Unfortunately, as Gamer1st put it, we're talking about a clashing of priorities. This is a game controller that happens to output MIDI. As MusicMaster said, there's no control panel or tweakability, so other options are currently better (even if they suck).

The door is now open for Fender to take this excellent technology and, with musicians in mind, release a proper MIDI guitar. I'm pretty confident this will happen


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:42 pm
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I do agree with you in part. But at the same time I don't see why it should cost a lot of money in the first place. The midi might not be very diverse in terms of how you set it up but this can always be done by the "noise" (synth) part of the midi receiver. Hexatonic pick-ups have never been that good.

Touch sensitive capacitance material is not the rare today. Ultimately if you have a the face of the neck made out of some form of polymer(I don't know) it is always going to be a little scratchy to play so it doesn't need a hand crafted neck or body for that matter. You forget that it needs some kind of microchip in the body to patch the sensor positions on the fretboard.

Someones review on this website also mentions that you can pitch bend by changing the angle which means it must have an accelerometer or gyroscope chip thingy in it.

As people have already mentioned though. The crux of this guitar is going to be how it registers that a note has been plucked. I have read and watched a lot about this guitar and some say that is why it needs a string mute thingy on it. As it picks up extra note on-offs from the string vibration. However if i use the string muter then maybe this will be eradicated.

I guess i am a little more optimistic than most of the people on this forum.

Everyone who is in it for the midi should remember that it is very difficult to make a midi guitar when everyone has a different playing style in the first place. I enjoyed the You Rock midi guitar and although I don't own one I prefer to use one when trying to lay down a midi track compared to an actual Roland ready or an axiom.

I just can't wait to see the first reviews of it's midi capability. If I can play The Entertainer on it and get an accurate midi track I will be happy. Which is actually easy to do on a You Rock guitar anyway.

Have Faith. Us guitarists have been held back from the midi world for too long. I can't wait until it becomes available. Transcribing will be so much easier. Writing written music and TAB will be so much easier. The world will be a better place.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:13 pm
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The YRG was basically useless until they finally put out the control panel and tweaked it through various revs. In fact, the YRG is still basically useless but that just has to do with inferior hardware that invites glitches and ghost notes and very limited sensitivity adjustment. But if you apply yourself with the control panel and screw around for a while, and play very carefully, you can use it to input very basic stuff into your DAW.

I suspect lousy as it is, it's light years ahead of the Squier here. Not that the Squier hardware is bad, just that a midi guitar given as the poster above said very different plucking styles from soft fingers to hard picks to metal finger picks. Each of those styles and velocity ranges needs to be adjusted for IN THE GUITAR SOFTWARE ITSELF so you're outputting the right stuff in the first place.

That Fender would ship this with ZERO CONTROL rendering it essentially a cricket bat is unacceptable to their loyal customers. They can do much better than that. And should have.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:27 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdRWmfGmcfk

He says he is trying the Midi side of it tomorrow. Hopefully we will all get a good review and idea about what this guitar is going to be like.

I have only used a You Rock guitar recently and it was for transcribing some finger picking blues or something. But even without pitch bends and hammer and pull offs. I didn't notice any notes that I wasn't really plucking. It did notice some left hand articulation (H/O P/O) admittedly twas very quiet.

"IN THE GUITAR SOFTWARE ITSELF so you're outputting the right stuff in the first place."

Not really true this. Midi info can be logically changed through the synth that it is being played through. What is it you are worried about exactly ? The right hand picking shouldn't make that much difference. Anyway all will be revealed soon.

My big worry is not the pitch recognition but more note on-off recognition.
Still well excited by it all though.


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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:47 pm
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Hey guys,
First time posting here! I'm also very interested in using the Squier as a MIDI controller, specifically for MIDI capture. Anyway, I've been looking for videos/posts of people getting this to work, and here's a bit of what I've found:

Hooking up the Squier to Reason/Ableton Live
http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216404&page=1
The setup seems to have a bit of latency, judging from what the creator of the video is saying, but that may be dependent on the processing power of the computer.

Hooking up the Mustang to a Mac
http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214135
This guy created software specifically for the plugging the Mustang into a Mac. Pretty neat. Hopefully, he can easily tweak it for use with a Squier.

Personally, until these tools come to fruition, I think I'm going to hold off on getting one. I've been able to connect my GHWT drums to my PC, and the latency isn't too bad. Perhaps the same techniques can be used to get this working more optimally.


Last edited by wakaranai on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: RockBand 3 Squire
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:25 pm
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I have read a bit more and people claim that it doesn't register very well with the string muter off. Also that some strings don't register on every pluck on particularly the high e string. Mind you one of these people mentioned that he was alternate picking solos so as midi controller it would easy to repair that later. More annoying for someone who wants to get a high score than composer.

Some people claim that if your finger is closer to the next fret up that it sometimes plays the wrong note.

As a midi device it sends out the data in 6 channels which is better than first thought. It may be possible to adjust the pickup position string gauges or height at the bridge to enable it to perform better. Plus you can mess around with the truss rod. But I ain't sure about all that stuff.

Heard that the frets are made up of sections so can feel edgey. Same on the fretboard itself too. Although on the fretboard its across lengthways so not as problematic.

You have to ask "How much does real technique benefit you?" I think I got a pretty good muting technique anyway so maybe I wont need the dampener.

Still really want to play one. Or even see one given a good seeing to hooked up to a computer.

The jury ain't out yet


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