It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:56 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: MIJ Tremolo in China Affinity
Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:08 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 2
I have run into many of the lesser known or asked facts about the Squier line. I have done hours of search of each of these subjects and will continue until there is a history provided for the production of Fender that is cataloged, proved and becomes common knowledge. This is for our benefit. I can look on e-bay and see many items selling that claim Fender in the title but on further analysis there is no back up to prove these claims that the parts are Fender or where ever placed in a Fender guitar. It is my intention to make you all aware of this fact and to arm you with the knowledge that copy, counterfeit and misrepresentation are rampant in e-Bay and the internet selling community in general.
First fact is parts that do not have a direct connection to the Fender name, (those piece lacking the Fender logo or documentation that you can not find the picture or description reference on the internet are all speculative; and, when you buy an instrument (Frankenstein or otherwise) that has parts that you can not point to and say absolutely that the origin is from Fender then you allow these deception to flourish. I will continue to post many unanswered questions that regard us all; so, I advise you to record my username and stay up on the questions I will submit.
First question:
Where are the pickups Texas Specials made?
BS is calling them Texas when they are made in Mexico?
Naming the pickups Texas implies that they are made in the U.S.A.
I have looked for hours to find the location of manufacture; but, have been unsuccessful. This is a deceptive practice to increase profit without giving you any real value. If you want hot wound pickup Made in the U.S.A then search the internet for U.S.A manufacturers that can customize any pickup you desire for the same price or even lesser pricing in some cases. Putting the Fender name on a piece does not make it more worthy of sentiment or playability.
Second question:
In a 2005 China Affinity I picked up it had a MIJ synchronised tremolo in it.
Was this piece a mod or does fender ship from their Cast and Pour house which is in Japan to supply parts for the Squier line across the world to this date. Here is the real question. How much of the Fender Squier is outsourced form the five countries and assembled in one location?
These answers are necessity for us to evaluate the price we pay for these parts in consideration of the reason the value was originally placed on the items. This is the same reasoning that the value for Vintage Fender holds; but, it seems to many noephites are wrecklessly driving the prices up following the name Fender. I believe that Fender needs to uphold to the pricing value guides place for all parts for the reasons of Location, application, materials, intricacy, demand, durability.
I will be back with more, Thanks for your time and interest. Gilbert.


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: MIJ Tremolo in China Affinity
Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:45 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 1598
Major-G wrote:
I have run into many of the lesser known or asked facts about the Squier line. I have done hours of search of each of these subjects and will continue until there is a history provided for the production of Fender that is cataloged, proved and becomes common knowledge. This is for our benefit. I can look on e-bay and see many items selling that claim Fender in the title but on further analysis there is no back up to prove these claims that the parts are Fender or where ever placed in a Fender guitar. It is my intention to make you all aware of this fact and to arm you with the knowledge that copy, counterfeit and misrepresentation are rampant in e-Bay and the internet selling community in general.


Well Gilbert,
I'm sure you posted this with the best intentions in mind however I've said it before and I'll say it again...when it comes to fakes and counterfeits, all of the best meaning posts on the internet simply are NOT going to make a difference unless people choose to do their homework before they buy and choose to make "smart" purchases. This is just my own personal opinion and I don't have any statistic to back this up but it's been my experience that most people who get burned buying a fake Strat do so for one of two reasons;

A.) They didn't know what they were doing.

B.) The got greedy.

There -are- exceptions...sometimes knowledgeable, smart individuals can get burned. It -does- happen. That said, most folks who get burned fall in to one of those two categories.

Yea...there's a lot of fakes out there. The thing is that it seems most of them are...well...pretty bad fakes, LOL!!! However if you don't know much or anything about Strats...or specific models of Strats (or at the very least, the specific model you're considering buying), how do you know a real one from a fake one? Obviously there is a -ton- of info on this website along and much much more on the internet in general. It comes down to knowledge really...if for example you know that most MIM's use decent Shaller/Fender tuners and the guitar has cheapy chrome covered tuners, you know -something- is wrong or has possibly been changed. That little thing alone however is not conclusive...sometimes people change parts on their guitars and there's -nothing- wrong with that at all. Very simply however, the more you know, the less likely you are to get burned.

The downside of that is that most people in that first category don't come to these forums or really look up much information on the guitar they are considering until after they've already made the purchase. Seriously...do a search on these forums for "fake strat" (go ahead...do it now...I'll wait). You should see there are a fairly large number of threads that start with "Did I get a fake?". The problem isn't a person with good intentions who's trying to warn others, it's that those others probably aren't going to bother reading it until after it's too late.

What's more is the greedy folks will probably never read this either. Let's face it...I'm sure we've all heard about someone who's done this...you're watching that Fiesta Red American Standard on Ebay and there's only 7 minutes and 37 seconds left to go in the auction. Ya looked at the pictures...it looks like a Strat (unless you know that the truss rod end is supposed to have a walnut insert instead of plain wood!). The current bid is...wow...the current bid is only $175!!! Woo-hoo! I'm gonna get me a new Fiesta Red American Standard!!! 4 minutes and 23 seconds...the bid has only gone up to $215.50..OH BOY!!! Hey...I better get out my debit card! 47 seconds and the price is still only $275...wow (wait for it...here's the point...) I better bid before someone else wins it!. Haven't we seen this on Craigslist from time to time too...gotta have it before it get's away? Now seriously...is this person who is sooooooo caught up with "new guitar fever", is this person really going to stop and look for your comment here under the Squier forum? I'm really not trying to be rude here but that just seems very unlikely.

Quote:
First question:
Where are the pickups Texas Specials made?
BS is calling them Texas when they are made in Mexico?
Naming the pickups Texas implies that they are made in the U.S.A.
I have looked for hours to find the location of manufacture; but, have been unsuccessful. This is a deceptive practice to increase profit without giving you any real value. If you want hot wound pickup Made in the U.S.A then search the internet for U.S.A manufacturers that can customize any pickup you desire for the same price or even lesser pricing in some cases. Putting the Fender name on a piece does not make it more worthy of sentiment or playability.


Now, on your Texas Pickups comment...what about Fender branded "Tex/Mex" pickups? These pickups as I recall were a "collaboration" between the Corona and Ensenda facilities. Those are after all "real" Fender brand pickups...and they're pretty spankin' too boot!.

Ok...I realize that the term "Texas Pickups" is becoming something of a generic term and it's not really right. You're always going to have people that will "exagerate the details" just to make a sale. I recently ran across a Strat on Craiglist a while back that supposedly had "Stevie Ray Vaugn Signature Pickups", LOL! That said, you comments there seem to imply that your simply unhappy about pickups made elsewhere than the US...and there are some very good import pickups out there. Duncan Scorcher Rails for example...import version of the Hot Rails...they rock dude. Again Tex/Mex pickups...real Fender even though they're not made in the USA and they sound very good.

It is of course a marketing ploy...it's a name the invokes visions of a specific type of "sound" (ala Stevie Ray Vaughn) so honestly, if the pickups fit that style of sound, who cares where they were made? I don't know about you but personally I'm more concerned about how my pickups sound rather than where they were made.

Your problem here seems to be more about "terminology" than it does with any specific brand/model of pickup. I could be wrong but I suspect that if Fender were to call the Tex/Mex pickups (or other brand/model) "Hombre's" or "Spicy/Mex" that you probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with these. So is the problem really the pickups or simply your perception of the "name".

Quote:
In a 2005 China Affinity I picked up it had a MIJ synchronised tremolo in it.
Was this piece a mod or does fender ship from their Cast and Pour house which is in Japan to supply parts for the Squier line across the world to this date. Here is the real question. How much of the Fender Squier is outsourced form the five countries and assembled in one location?


Ok...Fender as a whole is a very large company (a tiny fact that a lot of people seem to forget) and as such they have factories all over the world and they do in fact buy many of their parts from 3rd party companies (such as Schaller tuning keys). While it doesn't happen often, it's not unheard of for certain years/models to be made from parts from other factories. The mid 90's MIJ years are a good example. Back in the early to mid 80's when Fender started having guitars made for them in Japan by FujiGen (excellent instruments btw), there is a story about Fender USA having shipped a number of parts...specifically pickups...over to Japan until they got their own facilities up to snuff. Most MIJ Strats (Squier or Fender) of that era have MIJ pickups but there are rumored to be a few early models that actually have USA pickups in them (the "cloth" wire is a give away). Later when they started moving things to Korea, same thing...I'm sure that some parts from Japan got shipped to Korea and eventually got used on some "Korean made" instruments.

Now I have to mention that this isn't solely limited to over-seas instruments either. Another tiny detail that a lot of folks seem to over-look is that the Fender Corona plant and the Ensenada plant are literally just a few hours down the road from each other. Hypothetical situation but consider this; let's say that a piece of equipment breaks down at the Corona plant...or maybe that they are simply back logged on orders for a specific department. Again Fender is a "BIG" company...do you really think they're going to just shut down that line until the problem is fixed when they have nearly identical facilities just down the road? That's just very bad business sense. Look at the Fender California Series...those suckers may be mostly USA made but the finishes were done in Ensenada...they may say "California" on them but those suckers are definitely part Hombre', LOL!

That said, again this doesn't happen that often. Fender typically makes guitars in certain parts of the world for certain markets. The MIJ's of today as I understand are the "Standards" for the European market the same way as the MIM's are the Standards for the American market. So as such, if your '05 CIC Affinity has an MIJ bridge, chances are someone swapped it out at some point. I'm sure it's possible that it could have come from the factory like that but it's fairly unlikely. That said...and again personal opinion here...typically the MIJ's have better bridges.

Quote:
These answers are necessity for us to evaluate the price we pay for these parts in consideration of the reason the value was originally placed on the items.


I also wanted to address this comment specifically as well. When we're talking about guitars...or any item really that's "mass produced" it's not really typical to evaluate the price of the item...or it's collective parts based on what you've suggested here. With very rare exceptions, there is a simple truth about buying and selling...anything...the seller can decide what the item is worth and the seller has to decide -if- that price is worth it to him/her. Let's say that I start building guitars and just to make this easy, let's say that I'm building my own line of Strats. Of course I'm not going to call them "Strats", let alone "Fenders" because that would be a trademark infringement...we'll call this model the "Walczak Guitars Rocker"...even though it has an alder body, maple neck, 3 single coil pickups and happens to look nearly identical to a Strat, LOL!!! Now let's say that I build these guitars with top quality parts and I even hire some top notch builders...good parts, good attention to detail and just as good as any Fender American instrument out there. If this were the case, it wouldn't be "unreasonable" for me to sell these things for a price similar to...or at least competitive with, a Fender American Strat. No one would be terribly surprised by that...after all, we are talking about a serious, top of the line instrument here. If I really wanted to bug the folks at Fender, let's say I sell these instruments for around $850 new (since I don't have to pay the folks in R&D or anything, LOL!). Ok...that's all fine and good...but wait...

Let's say that instead of a top of the line instrument, I wanted to make some inexpensive instruments that I could sell a lot of, quickly, for cheap. Let's say that I contract with some "eastern sweat shop" and can get these instrument made for me for about $50 a piece after which I slap my company name and logo on them. This is nothing new...companies from Johnson to Memphis to Lotus have done something similar to this for years and have sold said guitars in the $100 - $200 price range. The difference is that I'm going to sell mine...wait for it...$1400 new...$1750 with imported hardshell case. Now of course, no one in their right mind is going to buy this instrument and no...my company probably won't be around for very long however as the manufacturer of that product, I set the price point.

Now as this pertains to your post here, Fender/Squier have pretty much all of the price points covered...$120 Bullets and $170 Affinities for the entry level market, $220 Standards, $350 CV's, and $500 MIM's for the mid level market. Highway One's, Roadworns, and the new American "Specials" for the "nice...but not too nice" market. American Standards, American Deluxes and finally Custom Shops where you can get -anything- for a price. So honestly...knowing the subjective cost of manufacturer in regards to these instruments isn't really going to give you anything to work with...Fender set's their prices according to their market.


Quote:
This is the same reasoning that the value for Vintage Fender holds; but, it seems to many noephites are wrecklessly driving the prices up following the name Fender.


Well...this too I find a bit subjective. The vintage guitar market is a bit of a peculiar thing really. The perceived value of a lot of instruments is usually based on "who's playing what" at the time. Take a look at the early 70's for example and one Mr. Eric Clapton. Back at that time, Strats weren't really "fashionable"...most serious players didn't play Strats. Then along comes this one guy who built a Strat from the parts of 3 different guitars (that he only payed $100 a piece for) and nearly over night the "vintage Strat market" was born and suddenly those "used guitars" that no one wanted were going thru the roof price-wise.

Now a days of course something like a real 50's or early 60's Strat is going to fetch a ton of money...just as a vintage Les Paul or a vintage Martin acoustic or some other brands might. This really has little to do with the Fender name specifically as much as that these are simply older, brand name instruments (as apposed to Kay or Harmony or something). And once you involve "collectors"...or more specifically people who collect for "profit", you're going to have people trying to drive the prices of their "investments" up...and there's absolutely nothing that the folks at Fender can do about that.

Now to that I also have to add, the vintage guitar market is also a bit "whacked" too. I've been to a couple of guitar shows and I've certainly seen this over the years on Ebay and elsewhere. Things like a "'64 Strat neck plate" going for -$300- or more. Ok...we're not talking about a nicely seasoned piece of antique wood here, we're talking about a square piece of metal with 4 holes drilled in the damn thing...you can buy a nice, new shiny one for $10 or less that will do the -EXACT- same job! Let's think about this for a moment. Ok...I'm sure that there are some people who really think that 45 year old neck plate is going to make their guitar sound "better" just as some folks really think they can hear a difference by removing the trem cover, LOL! I guess if someone really was restoring a vintage instrument I can see some desire to have original parts on it. But ultimately we're still talking about a gorsh-danged neck plate here. It's not like changing the pickups or even the trem block where it's really going to have any significant difference on the sound of the guitar -at all-. So personally, vintage guitar or not, I'll take the $10 neck plate and spend the difference on another guitar! LOL!!!

What's more, do you really think that stupid metal plate cost Fender that much more to make back in '64 than they do now comparatively speaking? Your comments here would seem to indicate that is "part x" was made in East Padawanga Arkansas and it originally sold for $5.22 on that new Strat then in 40 years said part is going to be worth "X dollars"...but X will always be a variable based on the demand for that part at the time. On this issue alone referencing the price of parts on vintage instruments really has nothing to do with the pricing on new instruments regardless of where they were made.


Quote:
I believe that Fender needs to uphold to the pricing value guides place for all parts for the reasons of Location, application, materials, intricacy, demand, durability.


And I think that I should be the supreme ruler of some tropical island paradise...how does that saying go about "if wishes were five dollar bills"? LOL!!! Seriously, documenting the details of each and every part on each and every instrument they produce would be a massively time consuming and fairly pointless task...and it would certainly drive the price of our instruments up! Ok...I know there are other's who get bent out of shape if they discover their tuners on their American Strat were made in actually "Japan"...some how the country of origin is some how more important to them than the function of the device. Again just my opinion but personally I don't really give a ratt's butt where my tuners or my bridge saddles were made...as long as they do the job. Come on...a decent "sealed tuner" is usually all you really need for a Strat...Schaller, Gotoh, Ping...Germany, Japan, China...who really cares as long as it keeps your strings in tune! LOL!!! I'm sorry but if you're really -that- hung up on where the individual parts of your $170 Squier Affinity were made, you're really focusing on the wrong thing my friend! In the words of the late, great Frank Zappa, "Shut up and play your guitar".

I'm not trying to be rude here at all...there have been a couple of posts around these forums lately that would seem to indicate at least a few folks seem to think that Fender/Squier should provide "full disclosure" about their instruments. And for a person with an older instrument...or considering buying an older instrument...this would sure be wonderful. It would be nice to be able to contact Fender and say "hey, I've got a Mexican made Strat, serial number MZxxxxxx...what kind of details can you tell me about it? In fact, Fender does already do that to some degree...they were actually able to tell me quite a bit about the used '03 MIM Standard I recently purchased at a guitar show. That said, especially for a $200 instrument (or less) all of those details really aren't necessary. Most folks...and especially those with less expensive instruments, usually aren't that considered with "academics", they simply want a guitar that plays good. I won't speak for others here but personally as long as the guitar plays the way I think it should and sounds the way I think it should, I don't really need to know what part of the planet the saddles were stamped on or the specific chemical mixture of the plastic used for the nut or what country the screws were made in.

These are, as always, just my own person opinions...please take them as such.

Jim


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: