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Post subject: Help Dating a Japan Squier
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:17 pm
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Hi,

I'm trying to date a Squier and all references on the web say "refer to the Fender serial number dating service".

so looking at e.g. http://www.fender.co.uk/support/japanes ... uments.php

My serial number E673928 indicates 1984-87

However nothing I can find specifically says Fender Squier - so am I right in assuming that this list applies to Squiers (as opposed to regular Fenders - if in fact that is such a thing as a non-Squier Fender made in Japan?)

Also, is there anything in the number that can indicate a more specific date?

Thanks for any assistance.


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Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:20 pm
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In general, Squiers do not follow Fender dating rules, but an E6 MIJ Squier would be somewhere around 84-87, IIRC. Also there are Non-Squier, Fender Japan models from the same era too. So it can be a bit confusing


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Post subject: Re: Help Dating a Japan Squier
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:43 am
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fat_fingers wrote:
Hi,

I'm trying to date a Squier and all references on the web say "refer to the Fender serial number dating service".

so looking at e.g. http://www.fender.co.uk/support/japanes ... uments.php

My serial number E673928 indicates 1984-87

However nothing I can find specifically says Fender Squier - so am I right in assuming that this list applies to Squiers (as opposed to regular Fenders - if in fact that is such a thing as a non-Squier Fender made in Japan?)

Also, is there anything in the number that can indicate a more specific date?

Thanks for any assistance.


I'm not an expert on this so -please- take my comments as being a bit subjective but from my understanding the "E series" MIJ Strats of this era...Fender or Squier, all came out of the same factory; FujiGen. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of specific information on these instruments other than that they are typically very good instruments. I've never been able to find anything in regards to any specific differences between the Fenders and Squiers that came out of this plant...in fact everything I've ever seen seems to indicate that there really aren't any differences at all. Most of them seem to have basswood bodies and most of them use the identical same necks, hardware, etc.. The same seems to apply to the "Contemporary" MIJ Strats of this era as well. The Squiers will typically go for less money because they're "Squiers" and not "Fenders" but other than that, there seems to be very little difference.

Your best bet for info is really just the guitar itself. Pull the neck and check for any factory stamps. I have an '85 MIJ Squier for example and the neck is stamped "ST-362" which tells me the neck is a '62 reissue. Looks like this...



Image


What's more is on mine there is a date hand written on the end of the neck heal...

Image


This tells me this particular neck was made September 13th, 1985. Unfortunately the neck pocket of the body on mine is less revealing...there is a hand written "SST" which seems to indicate "Squier Stratocaster" and there is a "BLK" which would seem to indicate the original color (and this body is certainly "black") but not much else. This leads to the question of when this guitar was actually "assembled" or more specifically what year was it sold?

The beautiful thing about Fenders is that they are so "modular" but the bad thing about them is that...well...they are so modular, LOL! In the case of my '96 MIM Standard, I -know- it's a '96 because both the body and neck are stamped Feb 1996 (about a week apart in fact) and these stamps are clearly readable...although the serial number indicates the neck was actually made in '92. More over, I got this guitar brand new in the summer of 1996. In other words I -know- my '96 is a '96 because I bought it brand new in '96 and the neck and body stamps verify this. With an older or used instrument though, if it's not marked there's no way to be absolutely certain. In the case of my '85 Squier, the neck was clearly made in '85 but the body could have been made later...or earlier even. Further, those "parts" may have sat on a warehouse shelf for a while before the instrument was actually assembled and sold. For all I know that guitar may have not actually been sold new until '86 or '87 (or later)...there's just no way to know for certain. Because the neck is marked as an '85 though, that's what I call her...an '85.

Confused? Take some peace in knowing you're not alone. If you browse through Ebay ads of this nature you will often see instruments advertised simply as "E series Strat" and dated as an '84 to '87. Sometimes you will see something listed as more specific along with pictures showing a specific date stamp but unless all of the parts of the instrument are dated and those dates are still clear and readable, there's just no way to know for sure.

The good thing is that either way these are typically very fine instruments. Obviously I haven't played every single instrument to ever come out of that factory...I'm sure there's a few lemons running around out there. Certainly there have been some comments made in regards to the Contemporary MIJ's with the System 1 trems where the fine adjusters have a tendency to strip however in general the instruments that came out of the FujiGen plant...Fender and Squier a like...have a well earned reputation for being very high quality. I currently own 1 but I've played 5 or 6 over the years and they've all been exceptional instruments to say the least.

So as far as dating the instrument itself...look at the neck heal and the neck pocket. If you have date stamps or something hand written, great! If not, just be happy knowing that you have an otherwise fine guitar and don't sweat the specifics...just enjoy it for what it is.

That's probably not what you were looking for but I hope it helps!
Good luck,
Jim


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Post subject: Re: Help Dating a Japan Squier
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:22 pm
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lomitus wrote:
fat_fingers wrote:
Hi,

I'm trying to date a Squier and all references on the web say "refer to the Fender serial number dating service".

so looking at e.g. http://www.fender.co.uk/support/japanes ... uments.php

My serial number E673928 indicates 1984-87

However nothing I can find specifically says Fender Squier - so am I right in assuming that this list applies to Squiers (as opposed to regular Fenders - if in fact that is such a thing as a non-Squier Fender made in Japan?)

Also, is there anything in the number that can indicate a more specific date?

Thanks for any assistance.


I'm not an expert on this so -please- take my comments as being a bit subjective but from my understanding the "E series" MIJ Strats of this era...Fender or Squier, all came out of the same factory; FujiGen. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of specific information on these instruments other than that they are typically very good instruments. I've never been able to find anything in regards to any specific differences between the Fenders and Squiers that came out of this plant...in fact everything I've ever seen seems to indicate that there really aren't any differences at all. Most of them seem to have basswood bodies and most of them use the identical same necks, hardware, etc.. The same seems to apply to the "Contemporary" MIJ Strats of this era as well. The Squiers will typically go for less money because they're "Squiers" and not "Fenders" but other than that, there seems to be very little difference.

Your best bet for info is really just the guitar itself. Pull the neck and check for any factory stamps. I have an '85 MIJ Squier for example and the neck is stamped "ST-362" which tells me the neck is a '62 reissue. Looks like this...



Image


What's more is on mine there is a date hand written on the end of the neck heal...

Image


This tells me this particular neck was made September 13th, 1985. Unfortunately the neck pocket of the body on mine is less revealing...there is a hand written "SST" which seems to indicate "Squier Stratocaster" and there is a "BLK" which would seem to indicate the original color (and this body is certainly "black") but not much else. This leads to the question of when this guitar was actually "assembled" or more specifically what year was it sold?

The beautiful thing about Fenders is that they are so "modular" but the bad thing about them is that...well...they are so modular, LOL! In the case of my '96 MIM Standard, I -know- it's a '96 because both the body and neck are stamped Feb 1996 (about a week apart in fact) and these stamps are clearly readable...although the serial number indicates the neck was actually made in '92. More over, I got this guitar brand new in the summer of 1996. In other words I -know- my '96 is a '96 because I bought it brand new in '96 and the neck and body stamps verify this. With an older or used instrument though, if it's not marked there's no way to be absolutely certain. In the case of my '85 Squier, the neck was clearly made in '85 but the body could have been made later...or earlier even. Further, those "parts" may have sat on a warehouse shelf for a while before the instrument was actually assembled and sold. For all I know that guitar may have not actually been sold new until '86 or '87 (or later)...there's just no way to know for certain. Because the neck is marked as an '85 though, that's what I call her...an '85.

Confused? Take some peace in knowing you're not alone. If you browse through Ebay ads of this nature you will often see instruments advertised simply as "E series Strat" and dated as an '84 to '87. Sometimes you will see something listed as more specific along with pictures showing a specific date stamp but unless all of the parts of the instrument are dated and those dates are still clear and readable, there's just no way to know for sure.

The good thing is that either way these are typically very fine instruments. Obviously I haven't played every single instrument to ever come out of that factory...I'm sure there's a few lemons running around out there. Certainly there have been some comments made in regards to the Contemporary MIJ's with the System 1 trems where the fine adjusters have a tendency to strip however in general the instruments that came out of the FujiGen plant...Fender and Squier a like...have a well earned reputation for being very high quality. I currently own 1 but I've played 5 or 6 over the years and they've all been exceptional instruments to say the least.

So as far as dating the instrument itself...look at the neck heal and the neck pocket. If you have date stamps or something hand written, great! If not, just be happy knowing that you have an otherwise fine guitar and don't sweat the specifics...just enjoy it for what it is.

That's probably not what you were looking for but I hope it helps!
Good luck,
Jim


Hey,

I was just dropping in to see the squier topics, I usually roam the strat discussion. But I recently bought a MIJ stratocaster. The SN starts in E84**** (meaning 84-87). I always thought it was a based off a '57, as it has an 8 hole, 1 ply pickguard, and a 50's style neck profile, radius, and trust rod adjustment. I've read online that japan sold less expensive 50's models that had non-fender stamped bridges (same vintage style though) and different tuners, consistent with mine. Unfortunately I have been unable to read (as in identify) the stamp on the neck, leaving me wonder the year of the guitar.

Is there a reference you use to figure the neck stamp out? I don't recall my number, but I have it written down somewhere. If I can't find it all take it off again. But is there anything you could point me to for a reference? I do recall the Z being stamped like yours, and I think it was a 4 digit number. The pots are dated '84, so I've been calling it my '84. But anyway you could help would be great. Oh, also the body has a green stamp in the neck, which is very hard to read, but I believe says STD.


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Post subject: Re: Help Dating a Japan Squier
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:05 am
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strat_tone wrote:

Hey,

I was just dropping in to see the squier topics, I usually roam the strat discussion. But I recently bought a MIJ stratocaster. The SN starts in E84**** (meaning 84-87). I always thought it was a based off a '57, as it has an 8 hole, 1 ply pickguard, and a 50's style neck profile, radius, and trust rod adjustment. I've read online that japan sold less expensive 50's models that had non-fender stamped bridges (same vintage style though) and different tuners, consistent with mine. Unfortunately I have been unable to read (as in identify) the stamp on the neck, leaving me wonder the year of the guitar.

Is there a reference you use to figure the neck stamp out? I don't recall my number, but I have it written down somewhere. If I can't find it all take it off again. But is there anything you could point me to for a reference? I do recall the Z being stamped like yours, and I think it was a 4 digit number. The pots are dated '84, so I've been calling it my '84. But anyway you could help would be great. Oh, also the body has a green stamp in the neck, which is very hard to read, but I believe says STD.


Well again I am by no means and expert here so please consider these as only my personal opinions...if I'm in error about anything, hopefully someone will jump in and correct me.

As I'm sure you've discovered, there really isn't a lot of specific information about the MIJ's from this period...and what little there is can be a bit sketchy. As far as the neck stamp itself goes, from what I understand the neck on my '85 is a '62 reissue based on the number on the stamp; "ST-362". I really have no idea what the "3" in that number means but the "62" seems to indicate '62 reissue. This would certainly be consistent with the profile of the neck and the truss rod adjustment being located at the body end of the neck. In other words, if your neck is a '57 reissue as you suspect it will probably be stamped "ST-357" or something similar...Fender vs. Squier stamps tend to differ just a bit. In other words, a Fender neck may simply be stamped "ST-57".

Now in the case of my MIJ Squier, there is NOTHING on the body to indicate that it's a '62 reissue as well. If anything, my body sounds similar to yours in that it has the unstamped steel saddles and the 8 hole pickguard. Now I have to say here that the saddles themselves don't really seem to indicate anything...most of the MIJ's from this period that have a traditional or "vintage" trem seem to have unstamped saddles...at least all of the Squiers I've seen. I read somewhere that they simply did this as a cost saving thing...trying to save a few pennies here and there. Also I'm not really sure the pickguard really indicates anything either...again mine is an 8 hole but mine is actually a 3 ply.

I can't really say the tuners give a clear indication of anything either. With mine for example, even though it's a Squier, the tuners are stamped "Fender Japan". I've seen a number of both Fenders and Squiers like this however I've seen nearly as many on Ebay stamped "Gotoh" as well (although who's to say if those are original or not).

Unfortunately the same is true in regards to your pots being stamped '84. This could indicate that the instrument was in fact made in '84 but who's to say if those pots sat on a shelf in a warehouse for a while? Maybe they were used within a month or two of their manufacture, maybe they weren't...

The problem here from what I've been able to gather is that just because the neck is a '57 or '62 reissue and/or made in a specific year, doesn't mean the body or any of the other parts actually were. The bad thing is that while the necks are usually pretty well marked, many of the bodies I've seen aren't marked very well at all (and there's little info out there as to what the few markings actually mean). In addition to my '85 Squier, I now have a Fender MIJ Contemporary body that I'm going to use as a project. In this case the body is stamped "J 562" which by my previous logic would indicate the body is a '62 reissue but in this case it's definitely a "Contemporary Strat" because it also has the System 1 trem. Now the interesting thing here is that except for the trem, the addition of the micro-tilt at the neck (probably there because of the trem) and being drilled for an 11 hole pickguard (and the neck pocket stamps of course), the body is virtually identical to my '85 Squier. I just compared the two bodies downstairs, side by side and honestly, if it weren't for the trem, it would be nearly impossible to tell these two bodies apart....both routed for 3 single coils, similar excellent workmanship on both, same contours...same color even. The only reason I know this other body is a Fender and not a Squier is that there is a label in the neck pocket that says "Fender". Otherwise, just looking at these two bodies, they could have quite easily been right next to each other on the assembly line.

To me it really seems as though little thought went in to the assembly of these instruments at the FujiGen plant...they took whatever necks and put them on whichever bodies. I suspect this is just a "mass production" thing really...they make all the necks in one part of the factory and all the bodies elsewhere. The necks and bodies go in to their respective warehouses until someone walks through and grabs a "lot" for assembly. Fender certainly seems to do this so it wouldn't surprise me if FujiGen did as well. With my '96 MIM Standard for example, while both the neck and the body are marked February of '96, the serial number on the neck indicates that it (the neck) was actually made in '92...in other words, the neck sat on a rack in a warehouse for a few years before it was actually used to assemble "a guitar". In this case, I -know- it's a '96 because my wife bought it for me brand new in the summer of 1996...and the date stamps confirm this. However if I were to ever sell this instrument (which I have no plans of ever doing) and someone were simply to look up the serial number based on info here on Fender's website, they would come to the conclusion the guitar is actually a '92 instead...not that it really makes a lot of difference really. Mass production or otherwise though, it does make things a tad confusing for those of us who like specific details about our isntruments.....

I would also add that to complicate things, as these instruments are getting older it's hard to know if and what has been modified on a used instrument. In the case of my '85 Squier, I'm fairly sure that it is in fact all original...I get the impression the neck and even the pickguard had never been off this thing until it got to me. That said, Strats are Strats...in the case of a used instrument, who's to say if a neck or pickguard or something hasn't been swapped out somewhere in it's history. 25+ years is really a long time in the life of a guitar...who knows who's done what to it over the years?

It's really a shame that there isn't better information and documentation on these instruments and that they aren't better marked to give people some indication as to what they actually are specifically as they really do seem to be very fine instruments...my '85 Squier is really one of the sweetest Strats I've ever played. On the other hand, this was obviously a rather chaotic period in Fender's history...with the departure of CBS, the building of the new facilities, etc., it's probably no wonder there really isn't more info out there. Maybe we'll get lucky someday and someone over in Japan will find an old filing cabinet stored in the basement of a warehouse with all the details about these instruments. Until that happens however, the best thing I can really suggest is to just watch places like Ebay for instruments similar to yours and keep track of the info you discover about them...maybe it will tell you a little something more than I've been able to here.

I'm sorry if that's not really a lot of help there...again there's not really a lot of info out there on these instruments. You can certainly dig around on this forum as well as others and again keep your eye on Ebay and such for similar instruments but most people simply settle and call it "an E series Fender/Squier"...and that's usually sufficient. They are really great instruments either way so just be happy that you are lucky enough to have a wonderful piece of Fender's history :-)

Peace,
Jim


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Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:27 pm
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Thanks for the reply. I'll give a better response later, but I'm in my CSCI class right now. Just going to say, the original JV (japanese vintage) strats are regarded as the best quality from what I've heard. They were the original Squiers. I think they were made until 83 or 82. At that point they started making Fender logo strats and squiers. It's my belief that the change of the guitars from the JV specs were gradual. Hence, you see the 8 hole pickguards, 57s and 62s style necks, the sometimes the use of the vintage reissue style tuners and fender stamped saddles. That leads me to believe that the earlier the guitar, the more likely it will be to have the vintage specs. They may have continued that for a certain time, I'm unsure.

I don't really think that there is any quality difference between the Fender logos and Squiers logos.

So, for people in the know, I think the JV strats are going to be the most valuable and sought after. Unfortunately, it carry's the hated squier logo. I think it will hurt its price and collectibility. Which is good and bad imho. It means you can still grab a very nice strat for a cheap price.

Personally I think the best are the 84-87 fender logo strats with no squier. Also called the E-series. They're essentially the MIJ standard. They have all of the great quality and craftsmanship, with the Fender logo that people recognize.

Anyway I'll have to see what my serial number reveals when I get home. Just curious, what are the last two digits of your SN? Mine are 57, which could be chance, but if your SN on your 62 neck ends in 62...

Also I know what you mean about the pots date. Literally every component could be from a different year. But since that is the only component with a date thus far, she'll still be my '84 :wink:


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Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:35 am
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strat_tone wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I'll give a better response later, but I'm in my CSCI class right now. Just going to say, the original JV (japanese vintage) strats are regarded as the best quality from what I've heard. They were the original Squiers. I think they were made until 83 or 82. At that point they started making Fender logo strats and squiers. It's my belief that the change of the guitars from the JV specs were gradual. Hence, you see the 8 hole pickguards, 57s and 62s style necks, the sometimes the use of the vintage reissue style tuners and fender stamped saddles. That leads me to believe that the earlier the guitar, the more likely it will be to have the vintage specs. They may have continued that for a certain time, I'm unsure.


I don't know anything at all about the JV Strats at all so I can't really comment on that. I will say I have played a few of the MIJ's both Fender and Squier...although I honestly can't say if they were "E series" or otherwise, but they have all been truly excellent instruments.

Now I will say that I've read that some of the very early MIJ's did in fact use USA pickups. I forget the exact reason for this but it was something along the lines of Fender shipping a bunch of pickups over to Japan to use in the Strats until the Japan factory could start making their own. I guess the way to tell the difference is the wires...if they were cloth covered, they were USA but if they were the black and white plastic, they were Japan...and my Squier does have the black and white plastic covered wires. That said, the pups in my Squier do sound really sweet...especially clean.

Quote:
I don't really think that there is any quality difference between the Fender logos and Squiers logos.


I have to completely agree with this. In fact I would say that in regards to the MIJ's of this era, I really don't think there are any notable differences at all. As far as I've been able to research, both came out of the exact same plant...FujiGen...and except for the Squier logo and some possible inconsistencies in the stamps, they really appear to be damned near identical. Again I have the '85 Squier and I now have the Fender Contemporary body and except for what I mentioned earlier, the workmanship really appears to be identical...if it weren't for the bridge, it would be hard to tell these two bodies apart even side by side.


Quote:
So, for people in the know, I think the JV strats are going to be the most valuable and sought after. Unfortunately, it carry's the hated squier logo. I think it will hurt its price and collectibility. Which is good and bad imho. It means you can still grab a very nice strat for a cheap price.


From my view point, this is a good thing. While I currently own around 25 guitars of various makes and models, I do NOT consider myself to be a collector. I'm a musician...a guitar player. I don't buy an instrument because of what I perceive as it's "resale value" and I certainly don't buy one with plans of just selling it. I buy a guitar...any guitar...because it's a guitar and because of how it plays and sounds and makes me feel. If having that Squier logo on the headstock means I'm going to save a couple of hundred dollars for an otherwise excellent guitar (again if not identical to the "brand name"), hey...I got no problem with that at all. Let the gear snobs blow their money that way :-).

I would also add briefly that had my Squier of actually been a Fender, I probably would not have been able to get her because the price would have been higher. I only payed $329 (plus tax) for her...had she of been a "real" Fender, that price would likely have been closer to $500 or more...I was able to swing the 3 1/4 without the wife ripping my nuts off, but 500 would have gotten me seriously hurt! LOL!!! For a guitar of similar if not identical quality, the extra money would not have been worth the extra pain...all for the sake of a name 8).

Quote:
Personally I think the best are the 84-87 fender logo strats with no squier. Also called the E-series. They're essentially the MIJ standard. They have all of the great quality and craftsmanship, with the Fender logo that people recognize.



As we just discussed above, I really don't think there's much, if any difference between the Fender and Squier E series at all. As far as I know, they both came out of the exact same plant and I would be willing to guess they probably both came of the exact same assembly line and made by the exact same workers. Again my Squier is an E series as well and it's a great instrument all the way around. Yes, it does have one or two little quirks (like having to back off the volume a bit if I'm using a distortion pedal) but I don't think this is a quality issue based on it being a Squier as apposed to Fender as much as it simply being a 24 year old instrument.

Now with that I will admit that there are one or two things I have wondered about a little. For example my Squier has a zinc trem block...a full sized zinc block, but zinc none the less. I've kind of wondered whether the MIJ Fenders of this era had the same or whether they used real steel as well as whether they are interchangeable. I know my trem has the vintage spacing...which surprised me a bit as I really expected it to be metric like my MIM, but I have to wonder if there are really any differences between the bridges in regards to Squier vs. Fender E series...

Quote:
Also I know what you mean about the pots date. Literally every component could be from a different year. But since that is the only component with a date thus far, she'll still be my '84 :wink:


Hey...no problems with that at all. That's why I call my Squier an '85...it's got that 9-13-85 on the neck. Realistically speaking, since that neck was made so late in the year of 1985 (and who knows when the body was made!), the guitar probably wasn't actually sold until '86 or '87 (if not later)...although she certainly could have been someone's Christmas present back in '85 as well. To me though, she's just my '85 E series Squier.

Of course, I have no idea what I'm going to call the Contemporary when she's finished...other than just another "Partscaster", LOL!!! You'd think I'd be used to that by now 8).

Peace,
Jim


Last edited by lomitus on Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Grave Digging.
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:40 pm
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I appreciate this is a bit of grave dig in resurrecting this thread, but it was very interesting reading.

I also have an E-Series Squier which I've been trying to find out a little about.

I like many have narrowed it down to 84-87 and simply following the rule that E = 80, and then the first digit is the year, I call it my 85. I would pull the neck and look for more id marks, but I'm a little scared to do that especially as it is my gigging favourite, and I'm playing on Thursday evening.

I'm trying to find out which model it is as it has a relatively unusual setup of 1 bridge humbucker, 1 volume, and a tremolo. It also has a pickguard mounted jack socket which means that ordinary leads stick out 90 deg, so to prevent regular lead destruction I have to use a 90 deg lead.

The most interesting thing which prompted my post is that my S/N is just 392 away from lomitus' above being E533625. So our guitars must surely be same factory and same time frame. Although I'm UK, and I'm guessing that lomitus is US from his pricing in $.

The only thing I know for sure now is that I think I got myself the bargain of the century when I paid £115 ($169 at todays rate) for it 18 years ago complete with Fender Sidkick Reverb 25 amp.


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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:38 pm
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I've done extensive research on dating Squiers, and here's what I've learned:

1. Because Squires work so closely with knights and horses, it's good to read up on medieval decorum, equine care, and fighting techniques. Because the knight is a Lord, you'll need his permission to date the Squier.

2. Compliment the Squier on his/her appearance, wit, sense of humor. Add a little ale in the mix and you might be able to get together with him/her and find alternate applications for horse grooming techniques the Squier has learned.

3. Squiers existed primarily in feudalistic societies. As such, they'll appreciate gestures of chivalry but also find many modern dating advances as unwelcome. Just take it slow-- you'll be okay.

Enjoy dating your Squier. Hopefully there will be a beneficial exchange of a land and/or other economic assets should you choose to consummate the relationship in marriage.


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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:39 am
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Sorry, I also forgot to mention if it's a Japan Squier you're trying to date, the process will be much easier if you speak Japanese.


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