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Post subject: Problems with a Squire Mini
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:19 pm
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Hi Guys,

New to the forum, and hope this is in the correct place. About a year or so ago I bought my daughter a Squier Mini. For the last few months, it had seemed like I could not get it to stay in tune. Would tune it, then strike a chord and you could hear the G string out of tune immediately. Initially I figured it was the strings. Could not remember when I had replaced them, so thought that was a logical first step. Issue remained. So, I started doing a bit more reading and got some ideas for some additional tests to figure out where the issue may be. I found that it was not actually the string going out, but only when I played that string somewhere fretted. So the open G tunes fine, but when I then press the 4th fret, the B comes pretty sharp. So, looked around a little more and read up on doing a set up and intonation. so tested as instructed. Funny thing is that at the high part of the neck (around 12th fret), it is back in tune again. When I looked a little more closely, I found this was happening across the D, G and B strings. None of the others seem to encounter this.

So, to the point of this ramble ( :D )
Has anyone seen this type of issue? Is it something that can be fixed by me or does it need a guitar tech? As it is a fairly inexpensive guitar, I am not too keen on spending too much to fix this as it can be replaced for $99. But, at the same time, no sense in tossing a perfectly good guitar if it is something that can be easily (cheaply) fixed. Many thanks. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.


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Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:05 am
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I bought one of these for my son about 6 months ago and have the same problems. The intonation is terrible and there is just not enough adjustment to get it right. I adjusted on this thing off and on for a couple of weeks and it is better than it was but it still needs work. It almost seems like the location of the bridge is incorrect and that it needs to be moved.


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Post subject: Re: Problems with a Squire Mini
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:15 am
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PapaBear_tx wrote:
Hi Guys,

New to the forum, and hope this is in the correct place. About a year or so ago I bought my daughter a Squier Mini. For the last few months, it had seemed like I could not get it to stay in tune. Would tune it, then strike a chord and you could hear the G string out of tune immediately. Initially I figured it was the strings. Could not remember when I had replaced them, so thought that was a logical first step. Issue remained. So, I started doing a bit more reading and got some ideas for some additional tests to figure out where the issue may be. I found that it was not actually the string going out, but only when I played that string somewhere fretted. So the open G tunes fine, but when I then press the 4th fret, the B comes pretty sharp. So, looked around a little more and read up on doing a set up and intonation. so tested as instructed. Funny thing is that at the high part of the neck (around 12th fret), it is back in tune again. When I looked a little more closely, I found this was happening across the D, G and B strings. None of the others seem to encounter this.

So, to the point of this ramble ( :D )
Has anyone seen this type of issue? Is it something that can be fixed by me or does it need a guitar tech? As it is a fairly inexpensive guitar, I am not too keen on spending too much to fix this as it can be replaced for $99. But, at the same time, no sense in tossing a perfectly good guitar if it is something that can be easily (cheaply) fixed. Many thanks. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.


Since no one else has responded, I guess I'll toss my $.02 worth out here for you. There are only my own personal opinions so please take them as such.

The first thing you need to remember is that these "mini's" are really more of a novelty item than they are "real" guitars. As you say, they are inexpensive to begin with...they are not high quality instruments. As such, they are prone to the same issues as other inexpensive instrument including that of tuning stability. More over because they are a smaller, "short scale" guitar, these problems tend to be rather exaggerated. They're ok for "kids" as they have the smaller size neck that is great for little hands...or people who don't typically notice issues such as tuning problems.

That said, the issue does indeed seem to be a problem with intonation and could possibly be improved. Based on your post I'm going to assume that the guitar did tune up properly at one time and that this issue is fairly recent. -If- this problem has existed all along, please know that it's quite possible that it could just be something to do with the guitar itself...poorly placed bridge or something that can't be (easily) fixed. If on the other hand it did in fact tune up properly at one time, that most likely means that something in the setup has gone out...it happens. Personally I check (and usually tweak) my setup every time I change strings which is typically every other month or so...more if I'm doing regular gigs. If the guitar did tune up properly at one time, then let's proceed...

First here, while I could be wrong, from your description of the situation it sounds as though you don't really have a lot of experience with setting up a guitar...in other words you stated "looked around a little more and read up on doing a set up and intonation. so tested as instructed" so this leads me to believe you've never really done this before. If this is indeed the case, my first suggestion would be to take the guitar to a decent tech...tell him (her) exactly what the problem is and see what the person has to say. Baring issues such as leveling frets or replacing a bad tuner and such, a decent setup shouldn't cost more than around $40 or so and can make all the difference in the world.

If you really don't want to put that much money in to this instrument, please know this; doing a decent guitar setup isn't really that hard but as with playing the instrument itself it -is- a skill and quite often does require some "practice" to get it right. Quite honestly there are so called "pros" out there who really don't have the slightest clue how to properly set up a guitar. The instructions on this forum (and elsewhere on the internet) are a good start but please know that every guitar is different and that those rules for doing a setup are really more of "general guidelines" which aren't set in stone. In regards to things such as "action" for example (how high the strings are above the fretboard) as this is a "mini" instrument with a shorter scale, you may need to adjust what you are doing accordingly.

Also...and this is rather important...please know that most guitars NEVER have perfect intonation. It's the nature of the beast. If you look around on the internet you will see that a great many people have tried to tackle this problem...inventions such as "compensating nuts" and even "compensating frets" have all tried to address the issue of a guitar being in tune with itself. The fact of the matter is that a guitar...even an expensive high quality guitar, is NOT a perfect machine and lower quality instruments tend to exhibit even more problems of this nature. For the majority of people out there, this really isn't a problem...you learn to live with it. I won't go in to all the details or the science here but please understand that even a good guitar is never "perfect", let alone an inexpensive one.

It's also important to remember that most guitars...even expensive ones...typically require periodic adjustments. A guitar isn't just a "set it and forget it" thing. With rare exceptions, most guitars are made out of wood and as such are prone to issues in regards to humidity, age, etc.. Right now for example, most of my guitars are just a bit "wonkey"...it's fall going in to winter here in Ohio. The temperatures and humidity are changing drastically and it tends to wreak havoc with most of my instruments. Again, it's just the nature of the beast.

Now with all that said, if you are going to try and do this yourself my second suggestion is to make sure you use a tuner for checking the intonation. You didn't state this in your post but if you didn't use a tuner...-use one-. I won't speak for others here but personally I would -NEVER- attempt to do a guitar setup "by ear"...I -ALWAYS- use a well calibrated tuner. Second, before you start messing with the "scale length" by moving the saddles back and forth, make sure that the neck bow relief and the height adjustment on the saddles are set correctly. As I said above, the info here on Fender.com may NOT apply exactly as stated to a "mini" guitar...you'll have to use some judgment as to exactly how these things should be set (another good reason for taking it to a proper tech). Also in regards to the neck relief...should you need to adjust the truss rod, please do so -VERY- slowly...a little at a time! Most truss rods are snapped by people who do NOT know what they are doing! On a guitar like this, once you snap the truss rod, the neck is pretty much firewood.

The reason I mention this is that if the neck has too much of a bow what happens is that as you press the string to the fret you're actually pressing the string down further than you need to causing the string to go sharp. The string itself may be in fact be "in tune" but because it's set too high above the fretboard, it requires excessive pressure to get to the fret. You do want a little bit of a bow in the neck but not much...and because this is again a short scale instrument, that degree of bow may be much less than it is for a standard scale instrument. Also remember that the bow and the saddle height work together to create the action. For example, the neck can have too much of a bow but if the saddles are lowered, the action will still feel pretty good, however you'll still have the problem with certain frets going sharp because the neck is still over-bowed. To correct this you would need to tighten the truss rod a little (again -very- slowly...just a little at a time...maybe even allow it to set for a day or two between adjustments!), then raise the saddles to compensate if the action becomes too low.

Now again I want to caution you about doing truss rod adjustments...I really can't over-state this. If you're not comfortable and confident doing this, PLEASE take it to a qualified tech! I've seen enough broken truss rods in my life to give me the heeby-jeebies. Most other things can usually be fixed on an electric guitar...frets, bridge, electronics, etc., but a broken truss rod...that's a really ugly can of worms and on a cheap guitar, it equals an over-priced wall decoration or simply firewood. If you decide to try this yourself, take your time...be patient...make small adjustments and wait a day or two for things to "settle in" before making further adjustments. Baby steps until you really get a feel for what you are doing!

Once the neck angle and bridge saddle adjustments are made correctly, then is the time to check and set the intonation. Again, use a tuner and as instructions describe, check the 12th fret harmonic against the note as fretted at the 12th fret...if they are not the same, move the saddles back and forth as the instructions indicate (sorry...I can never remember which way is which! LOL!) until the notes are exactly the same and in tune.

Again please be aware that while all of this isn't that terribly difficult for a person who knows what they are doing, it -does- take practice. You probably won't get it all right on the first attempt (or the second or the third). Also know that there -are- other problems that can cause what you have described...poorly leveled frets for example (and most inexpensive guitars don't usually have the best fret jobs!). On the other hand, a cheap guitar is the best place to start (in my always and ever so humble opinion). Either way, if you screw it up, don't sweat it...just start over again.

Ok...I hope this gives you a little bit of insight and a few things to think about.

Good Luck!
Jim

(BTW...welcome to the forum!)


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:22 pm
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Hi Jim,

Many thanks. Your assumptions were right. Not experienced at all with this, but always like to know how things work. Much rather fiddle around with this one than my new Highway One. I did tighten the truss a bit, then retune. Then tweaked the saddle length and tuned again. Did this a few times and have gotten to an acceptable level. I understand what you mean about this taking practice. Definately take mine to skilled tech when it needs some work. Can't thank you enough. Really appreciate you taking the time to give such a detailed response. Take care.

Regards,
Nick


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:31 am
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PapaBear_tx wrote:
Hi Jim,

Many thanks. Your assumptions were right. Not experienced at all with this, but always like to know how things work. Much rather fiddle around with this one than my new Highway One. I did tighten the truss a bit, then retune. Then tweaked the saddle length and tuned again. Did this a few times and have gotten to an acceptable level. I understand what you mean about this taking practice. Definately take mine to skilled tech when it needs some work. Can't thank you enough. Really appreciate you taking the time to give such a detailed response. Take care.

Regards,
Nick


Hey Nick,
My pleasure and I hope it helps! BTW...nothing wrong with learning how things work. I love to tinker too...I think that's how most of us get started with this stuff...that ol' tinkeristis! LOL!!!

Peace,
Jim


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