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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:37 pm
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Aside from the case candy and about $10,000, I'd like to know what is the REAL difference between that guitar and the American Vintage 56 (same year and most of the same specs)?


Last edited by Jared Purdy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:29 pm
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did you watch the linked the videos? the differences should be pretty apparent (i.e. the replicate the specific wear and tear, the neck profile, the coloring, the body spread, etc.).

whether or not one feels these differences (along with the candy and other aspects) justifies the increased outlay is, of course, a personal decision


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:42 pm
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ufboy73 wrote:
did you watch the linked the videos? the differences should be pretty apparent (i.e. the replicate the specific wear and tear, the neck profile, the coloring, the body spread, etc.).

whether or not one feels these differences (along with the candy and other aspects) justifies the increased outlay is, of course, a personal decision


Yes, I watched the videos, and then some. I'm not one to pay for someone to wear out my guitar for me. It's a three piece alder body for heaven's sake, about as basic as it gets. The neck is the best piece there. In fact, it's all about the neck. The colouring is a two colour burst, again, very standard fare. Okay, they made it look faded. :shock: I made the mistake of making a similar comment on the Gibson forum, asking what the real difference was between a Les Paul Traditional ($2300) and a Custom Shop ($6500), other than the nicer flame top (which is actuallly offered on cheaper variants of Les Pauls than the Traditional!!). Well, you can imagine the back draft. I was practically branded a heretic, unfit to live. It comes down to tone and playability and in some cases, all the effort and money in the world won't make a damn bit of difference.


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:15 pm
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Jared Purdy wrote:
I made the mistake of making a similar comment on the Gibson forum, asking what the real difference was between a Les Paul Traditional ($2300) and a Custom Shop ($6500), other than the nicer flame top (which is actuallly offered on cheaper variants of Les Pauls than the Traditional!!). Well, you can imagine the back draft. I was practically branded a heretic, unfit to live. It comes down to tone and playability and in some cases, all the effort and money in the world won't make a damn bit of difference.


(+1) I totally agree!!!


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:03 pm
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Jared Purdy wrote:
ufboy73 wrote:
did you watch the linked the videos? the differences should be pretty apparent (i.e. the replicate the specific wear and tear, the neck profile, the coloring, the body spread, etc.).

whether or not one feels these differences (along with the candy and other aspects) justifies the increased outlay is, of course, a personal decision


Yes, I watched the videos, and then some. I'm not one to pay for someone to wear out my guitar for me. It's a three piece alder body for heaven's sake, about as basic as it gets. The neck is the best piece there. In fact, it's all about the neck. The colouring is a two colour burst, again, very standard fare. Okay, they made it look faded. :shock: I made the mistake of making a similar comment on the Gibson forum, asking what the real difference was between a Les Paul Traditional ($2300) and a Custom Shop ($6500), other than the nicer flame top (which is actuallly offered on cheaper variants of Les Pauls than the Traditional!!). Well, you can imagine the back draft. I was practically branded a heretic, unfit to live. It comes down to tone and playability and in some cases, all the effort and money in the world won't make a damn bit of difference.


thats cool, so your question really wasnt 'whats different'. it was more 'dont know how these minor differences are worth it'.

as i said, thats more a personal choice than anything else.


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:21 pm
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Jared Purdy wrote:
Aside from the case candy and about $10,000, I'd like to know what is the REAL difference between that guitar and the American Vintage 56 (same year and most of the same specs)?


This is a Tribute series guitar, meaning great effort was made in replicating exactly the wear and tear of the original instrument. Obviously, the measuring, replicating and the guitars being Masterbuilt by Todd Krause all adds to the price. Add to this that you'll also be sponsoring the Crossroads Centre and you'll end up with a hefty price tag.

Whether you want to pay for it or not, is entirely up to you.

Moreover, I think you should also take into account what you want to do with it. If you are looking for a road warrior, acquiring this guitar makes no point at all, by using it vigorously you'll eventually alter its appearance in which so much time and money was invested. This is an instrument to be appreciated for it's looks, to be played occasionally with reverence. Marketed for fans and collectors with purchasing power.

If you aren't in for such a guitar, Fender luckily offers many alternatives at (again luckily) much lower prices.

BTW: off topic on the Gibby guitars; if you ever have the chance to compare a factory model with a custom shop guitar back to back, you'll notice the difference. Again, it's up to you if you are willing to pay for it.


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:51 pm
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Bobby1 wrote:
Jared Purdy wrote:
Aside from the case candy and about $10,000, I'd like to know what is the REAL difference between that guitar and the American Vintage 56 (same year and most of the same specs)?


This is a Tribute series guitar, meaning great effort was made in replicating exactly the wear and tear of the original instrument. Obviously, the measuring, replicating and the guitars being Masterbuilt by Todd Krause all adds to the price. Add to this that you'll also be sponsoring the Crossroads Centre and you'll end up with a hefty price tag.

Whether you want to pay for it or not, is entirely up to you.

Moreover, I think you should also take into account what you want to do with it. If you are looking for a road warrior, acquiring this guitar makes no point at all, by using it vigorously you'll eventually alter its appearance in which so much time and money was invested. This is an instrument to be appreciated for it's looks, to be played occasionally with reverence. Marketed for fans and collectors with purchasing power.

If you aren't in for such a guitar, Fender luckily offers many alternatives at (again luckily) much lower prices.

BTW: off topic on the Gibby guitars; if you ever have the chance to compare a factory model with a custom shop guitar back to back, you'll notice the difference. Again, it's up to you if you are willing to pay for it.

Sound thinking
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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:27 pm
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[/quote.

BTW: off topic on the Gibby guitars; if you ever have the chance to compare a factory model with a custom shop guitar back to back, you'll notice the difference. Again, it's up to you if you are willing to pay for it.[/quote]

I have. I have a Traditional that I changed the pots, caps, stop tail piece and bridge on and took it to a local store that is stacked to the rafters with CS Les Pauls. I asked the staff to do a comparison between mine and a couple of theirs. They all admitted that with respect to tone and feel, there was little to no difference at all. The tops on the CS were nicer, not by a wide margin, but by a bit. But as I mentioned, Gibson offers AAA flamed tops on guitars that are cheaper than the Traditional.

Doing more to something increases it's value because of labour invested, and time is money, not because it is intrinsically better. That gets lost in the discussion because most of us beleive that if we are paying more for something, between two comparable objects, that the one we are paying more for is definitely better. I say that it is not always the case, and I see that a lot with instruments.

If I compare my Martin standard 000-28 to a similar Martin with an Adirondack spruce top, Brazilian rosewood body, edony fretboard and scalloped bracing, I know that there is a justifiable reason that the prices will be so far apart because the materials cost that much more, not that there is that much more labour put into the manufacture of the high end Martin, or Bourgeois (though the scallloped braces do add more labour to the process), but because of the scarcity and demand of the Brazilian rosewood. And, to top it off there is a definite tangible difference in the tone between the two. That's what you pay for, the tone. I have not found that to be the case with a lot of electric guitars. I can see higher end woods costing more, inlays, etc. But beyond that, it strikes me as hyperbole.

If you buy that Brownie, you will not have Eric Clapton's guitar. In fact, I would argue that if you bought the 2013 incarnation of the 56 you'd be closer as that is what he did in the early 1970s! He bought an off the rack guitar, and from pawn shops no less!! The irony is hysterical. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:16 pm
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Jared Purdy wrote:
[/quote.

BTW: off topic on the Gibby guitars; if you ever have the chance to compare a factory model with a custom shop guitar back to back, you'll notice the difference. Again, it's up to you if you are willing to pay for it.


I have. I have a Traditional that I changed the pots, caps, stop tail piece and bridge on and took it to a local store that is stacked to the rafters with CS Les Pauls. I asked the staff to do a comparison between mine and a couple of theirs. They all admitted that with respect to tone and feel, there was little to no difference at all. The tops on the CS were nicer, not by a wide margin, but by a bit. But as I mentioned, Gibson offers AAA flamed tops on guitars that are cheaper than the Traditional.

Doing more to something increases it's value because of labour invested, and time is money, not because it is intrinsically better. That gets lost in the discussion because most of us beleive that if we are paying more for something, between two comparable objects, that the one we are paying more for is definitely better. I say that it is not always the case, and I see that a lot with instruments.

If I compare my Martin standard 000-28 to a similar Martin with an Adirondack spruce top, Brazilian rosewood body, edony fretboard and scalloped bracing, I know that there is a justifiable reason that the prices will be so far apart because the materials cost that much more, not that there is that much more labour put into the manufacture of the high end Martin, or Bourgeois (though the scallloped braces do add more labour to the process), but because of the scarcity and demand of the Brazilian rosewood. And, to top it off there is a definite tangible difference in the tone between the two. That's what you pay for, the tone. I have not found that to be the case with a lot of electric guitars. I can see higher end woods costing more, inlays, etc. But beyond that, it strikes me as hyperbole.

If you buy that Brownie, you will not have Eric Clapton's guitar. In fact, I would argue that if you bought the 2013 incarnation of the 56 you'd be closer as that is what he did in the early 1970s! He bought an off the rack guitar, and from pawn shops no less!! The irony is hysterical. :lol:[/quote]


dont understand your point - your implicit assumption is that buyers are purchasing the replica because they are somehow deluding themselves into thinking that they are buying eric clapton's guitar?

the simple fact is that people that are buying these guitars are doing so for reasons that dont entirely have to do with tone, playability, or otherwise intrinsic value of the components.

the fact that you would only justify the premium in those terms is fine - but there are plenty of buyers that justifuy it on some other basis.


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:14 am
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ufboy73 wrote:
dont understand your point - your implicit assumption is that buyers are purchasing the replica because they are somehow deluding themselves into thinking that they are buying eric clapton's guitar?


He just points out that buying the most expensive guitar available is not what Clapton did. If you want to copy Clapton's ways, you have to do as he did and buy a cheap standard guitar.

Maybe the comment is a little off-topic.

Cheers

David

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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:05 am
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Amerigo wrote:
ufboy73 wrote:
dont understand your point - your implicit assumption is that buyers are purchasing the replica because they are somehow deluding themselves into thinking that they are buying eric clapton's guitar?


He just points out that buying the most expensive guitar available is not what Clapton did. If you want to copy Clapton's ways, you have to do as he did and buy a cheap standard guitar.

Maybe the comment is a little off-topic.

Cheers

David


That's pretty well it. The marketing makes it pretty clear to. And as one respondent said, because it is as near an exact relica as possible, if you intend on keeping it that way, you won't be playing it very much. :shock: It's a wall hanging, essentially, an $11,000 wall hanging at that. All of the posts on these forms are personal and personal opinions. I thought that was the point? Oh, and that "cheap standard guitar", is over $2000, and an excellent instrument, made to be played, the way Clapton would have played it!


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:42 am
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Amerigo wrote:
ufboy73 wrote:
dont understand your point - your implicit assumption is that buyers are purchasing the replica because they are somehow deluding themselves into thinking that they are buying eric clapton's guitar?


He just points out that buying the most expensive guitar available is not what Clapton did. If you want to copy Clapton's ways, you have to do as he did and buy a cheap standard guitar.

Maybe the comment is a little off-topic.

Cheers

David



Hi David,

First of all, a Stratocaster never was a "cheap standard guitar". Initially a Strat sold for more or less the average of 1 month income of a US resident, which by no way made it cheap.

Unfortunately there is no way you can "copy Clapton's way" as you put it, for we are living in an entirely other time. When Clapton bought these instruments there was really no collectors market at all. A second hand Fender or Gibson sold relatively cheaply because they were just considered second hand instruments. I even daresay that Clapton more or less inadvertently started the whole business of collecting old guitars. The minute he played them, many of his fans went after the same instruments thus dramatically increasing prices.

Moreover, Clapton has a nose for quality guitars. If these had been expensive at the time, he would very likely have bought them anyway. At the time he was financially well-off already so it wouldn't have made much difference for him if these guitars sold for $100 a piece or $1,000 a piece.

Finally, the people in the market for a Brownie guitar aren't into the game of getting guitars on the cheap. They just would like to have a guitar just like Clapton's.

We can debate endlessly on exactly how much the replicating is worth. Ultimately what counts is how much Fender's clientele is willing to pay for the guitar... And that is a game called supply vs. demand.


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:11 am
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Jared Purdy wrote:
Amerigo wrote:
ufboy73 wrote:
dont understand your point - your implicit assumption is that buyers are purchasing the replica because they are somehow deluding themselves into thinking that they are buying eric clapton's guitar?


He just points out that buying the most expensive guitar available is not what Clapton did. If you want to copy Clapton's ways, you have to do as he did and buy a cheap standard guitar.

Maybe the comment is a little off-topic.

Cheers

David


That's pretty well it. The marketing makes it pretty clear to. And as one respondent said, because it is as near an exact relica as possible, if you intend on keeping it that way, you won't be playing it very much. :shock: It's a wall hanging, essentially, an $11,000 wall hanging at that. All of the posts on these forms are personal and personal opinions. I thought that was the point? Oh, and that "cheap standard guitar", is over $2000, and an excellent instrument, made to be played, the way Clapton would have played it!


Jared,

It's not a $11k wall hanging, it's $15k wall hanging... and so what? A Gerhard Richter painting is a multi million wall hanging... Do you think the intrinsic value of the canvas, wood and paint comes anywhere near this?

I do think you have hit the nail here however. This guitar is as much to be considered a work of art as it is a guitar. As for a guitar, you can count on it that Fender makes it every inch as good as a Stratocaster can possibly get. There's money in that, in the replicating, in supporting Crossroads Centre and the obvious upcharge of Fender marketing a very exclusive instrument.

If you don't like that package, walk away from it and please stop letting it bug your mind. Somehow I get the impression that the price level of this instrument is bothering you, and really it won't help to critize it or question the common sense of the people that do fancy this guitar. Yes, you are right, there are many cheaper alternatives if you want a guitar you can play night after night. But íf you think that's what the Brownie guitar is all about you're missing the point.

Please enjoy the guitar(s) that you do have. I will continue to do so with my other guitars, redardless whether or not a Brownie will make it into my collection or not.


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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:29 am
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Bobby1 wrote:
We can debate endlessly on exactly how much the replicating is worth. Ultimately what counts is how much Fender's clientele is willing to pay for the guitar... And that is a game called supply vs. demand.


Yes - that's why I didn't want to go deeper into this. Just wanted to explain the thinking behind the statement. Of course it's fantastic to own one of these guitars.

Cheers

David

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Post subject: Re: Brownie
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:59 am
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i just dont see the relevancy of what clapton did.

people are simply buying a limited edition guitar that is a replica of Brownie.


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