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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:17 pm
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to quickly change the subject... I hope people hold the custom shop accountable to their products! I am very happy with the 3 I have and am excited for the MB I have on order. I can say that there is a MARKED difference between an off-the-shelf CS and a custom build. As a result, I've sold all of my off the shelf CSs.

I do think they need to work on their accuracy for their reissues and pay more attention to detail. I don't get why they relic a body with but neglect to give the same attention to the headstock. This is an area that Gibson has them beat. Also, small things, like knobs are incorrect for the period.

When it comes to playability and sound, they nail it though!


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:52 pm
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sikoniko wrote:
to quickly change the subject... I hope people hold the custom shop accountable to their products! I am very happy with the 3 I have and am excited for the MB I have on order. I can say that there is a MARKED difference between an off-the-shelf CS and a custom build. As a result, I've sold all of my off the shelf CSs.

I do think they need to work on their accuracy for their reissues and pay more attention to detail. I don't get why they relic a body with but neglect to give the same attention to the headstock. This is an area that Gibson has them beat. Also, small things, like knobs are incorrect for the period. When it comes to playability and sound, they nail it though!


There is a conflict between collecting and playing, for both guitar players and guitar makers. Some people do both which of necessity involves compromise.

If you read the history of the evolution and the Strat and the Les Paul, many changes came about not just because, but as design improvements. Yet a collector must insist on a replica being faithful to the year the instrument was made originally, improvements be damned. But a player surely wants a better instrument and some improvements do make a practical difference.

I love my 56 MB, until I have to adjust the truss rod. Hence I now gravitate toward the Clapton MB, which has vintage elements, but incorporates the more sensible design improvements.

For me there is nothing like a Strat, but I will never buy one without playing it first, CS or not. That condemns me to be the second owner of all my MB Strats, but I win more than I lose that way. Not many, it must be said, but I have played MB strats that I'd call a lemon. I have played two such of the 50th Anniversary 54 MB series, fortunately not mine.

Ditto for Les Pauls, and perhaps even more so.

In fact there are only two manufacturers of those I know well, I would happily get a guitar from without playing it first, because I have never found, or heard of, a lemon coming out of their hands: Roger Giffin, and Nik Huber.

But Roger won't make me a Strat, no matter how nicely I ask, though he makes (or has made) them for Clapton. Not a hard thing to forgive 8-)

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:33 pm
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Tiglath wrote:
There is a conflict between collecting and playing, for both guitar players and guitar makers. Some people do both which of necessity involves compromise.
)


For me there is no conflict. I want the real thing but since I can't afford it I want an exact reproduction to PLAY! I love 7.25 radius and vintage fret size. it just feels so comfortable for me. As far as neck setup, I dont know how to do that so taking the neck off isnt an issue for me... I pay someone to. One day I might learn...


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:00 pm
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sikoniko wrote:
Tiglath wrote:
There is a conflict between collecting and playing, for both guitar players and guitar makers. Some people do both which of necessity involves compromise.
)


For me there is no conflict. I want the real thing but since I can't afford it I want an exact reproduction to PLAY! I love 7.25 radius and vintage fret size. it just feels so comfortable for me. As far as neck setup, I dont know how to do that so taking the neck off isnt an issue for me... I pay someone to. One day I might learn...


Well... since you cannot afford the real thing, it can't be said that money is not object, therefore having to go to a tech and pay him to take off the neck and adjust the relief is a convenience and financial issue, small and affordable as it may be, because if you had a better designed Strat you could just do it yourself by just turning a screw, sort of thing, without leaving home.

There is no real evidence that having better access to the truss rod head will affect your vintage tone.

Strats were blessed with sensible tuning machines from the outset, but not so LPs. Those tulip vintage things are demonstrably inferior to Grovers. What is the collector/player to do to his '59 burst? He either commits collector sacrilege or puts up with likely tuning problems. The Devil's Alternative.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:21 pm
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sikoniko wrote:
I do think they need to work on their accuracy for their reissues and pay more attention to detail. I don't get why they relic a body with but neglect to give the same attention to the headstock. This is an area that Gibson has them beat.


I don't know what makes you think that. The LP Historics, for example, are a sad saga of discontent for faithful replica junkies. From the electronics to the hardware, to the nut material, the differences with the original vintage pieces are legend. Take a gander by the Les Paul Forum and see for yourself. (If you enjoy the relaxed style of this place and their rare ability to take criticism, tread carefully over there, they are a bunch of uptight people with short triggers).

The 50th Anniversary 54 MB Strat series were light years more faithful replicas than the R9 will ever be, though the recent ones are getting better. My 2003 R9 has a Corian nut, for one example in a long list, and the originals had a Nylon nut.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:06 pm
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I suppose I was not clear when I referenced Gibsons. What I meant is the (Tom Murphy) aging seems to have more attention to detail in areas such as the headstock. I've yet to see a CS where the headstock has the same crackle or whatever it is called that the bodies have... funny thing is the vintage strats seem to have it...

BTW, my Beano Les Paul seems really nice with a lot of attention to recreating a '60 LP.

I agree, no company really accurately reproduces the vintage guitars... my point was that they should take more care and greater effort to though.

I realize people want modern appointments, and I'm fine with that. BUT, I think they should also offer as close to vintage correct as possible as well. The point of the custom shop is to build a guitar that meets each customers want. I want a vintage correct guitar. I realize Brazilian is feasible so I'll let that slide and I also realize that nitro is a different mixture than what was available back then as well.. there is nothing they can do about that. What they can do is take greater care in details like getting the font, size and shape correct on the knobs!

BTW, I also have a '54 MB and its a great guitar. needs a setup desperately though. I love the amount of care they spent on details for this guitar. IT SHOULD NOT BE THE EXCEPTION - IT SHOULD BE THE NORM. I also realize Fender owns the patent for the sadles, but if a customer wants to order saddles that say "PAT PEND" to recreate the guitar, why can't they? Or another point of content - the tuners... Gibson has put GIBSON DELUXE on their kluson-esque tulip tuners... Why can't Fender do something similar for single-line or dual-line tuners? Again, attention to details...

In regards to Gibson tuners - it is my understanding that the vintage tuners didnt have as many gears and would slip out of tune. That is why the Grovers were a common upgrade. How much does that upgrade effect the value if it was done early in the life of the guitar? If the original tuners are included in the case I believe it does not hurt the value at all.


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:16 pm
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sikoniko wrote:

I agree, no company really accurately reproduces the vintage guitars... my point was that they should take more care and greater effort to though.


There is a veritable army of persnickety collectors that is shaming them into getting more and more accurate, but is a slow process. The current R9 has a different neck profile, different electronics, and different nut than early ones, just to mention a few things.



sikoniko wrote:
In regards to Gibson tuners - it is my understanding that the vintage tuners didn't have as many gears and would slip out of tune. That is why the Grovers were a common upgrade. How much does that upgrade effect the value if it was done early in the life of the guitar? If the original tuners are included in the case I believe it does not hurt the value at all.


Well, yes and no. You have to make the holes bigger for the Grovers and if you install them properly tight the washers leave an imprint on the wood. There is a way to enlarge the bore only partially on one side and that would allow to retrofit the Kluson ok, but it still involves removing some wood. On the other hand many vintage LPs have Grovers that were put on when the guitar was young, and so it is no the worse of modifications you can make, but for a strict collector I'd say it's not desirable.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:33 am
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[quote="Tiglath"
No sweat, but....

I would believe that if I was new here.

As it happens I distinctly remember the time when you insulted me UNPROVOKED, in a thread on the meaning of ,"Cabronita," about which you did not have an informed opinion but butted in anyway.

Also, there is a marked difference between a joke and a joke at someone's expense. One is humor, the other mockery. It seems you favor the latter.

Ignoring that distinction is, by the way, the frequent reason why good threads degenerate into eye-poking contests requiring operator intervention.

You are here everyday, I occasionally only but the best I can do is say: no hard feelings and that I will respect you in the same measure you respect me.[/quote]

No problem, I'll never intervene again on your comments.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:51 pm
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alainlafrance wrote:
No problem, I'll never intervene again on your comments.


A man of extremes...

There is a lot of useful territory between vituperation and silence. Feel free to dwell in it.

In fact if you had only intervened on my comments we would not be discussing this. But you "intervened on" the commenter.

The comment, the argument is game, man. The person behind it, is not.

For a good debate we should and we can attack any comment at pleasure till it's diced, sliced, mincée, concassée and fricassée if you like...

But leave the arguer, the commenter, the man well alone. That's how rational debates work in more formal and effective settings: if you attack the man you get disqualified. In a forum, instead, the heat increases as the light decreases until the thread goes to hell.

I see that you are not really aware of this fundamental difference, and as a few others think that disrespecting or mocking your interlocutor is a fine way to attack his argument. And if called on it you claim it was humor.

I may "intervene on your comments,' in the future, Alain. But I will make it extra clear that it's the argument that's it's being fired at, or praised, whichever applies, and not you.

All the best.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:58 am
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A bit late to this one - sorry. I'm lucky enough to have three Bill Carsons and will probably do a review on youtube of them. Check out: www.doonicans.com.

Cimarron Red is exactly like that on guitar motel pics and not like Dakota Red at all. I think the early custom shops have great attention to detail on things like neck pockets. Later CS I've tried can be hit and miss. However, the 2011 heavy relics are outstanding. My favourite player is an ash Fender Tonequest Custom Shop Strat: http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-custom ... 9-transpar


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:42 am
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JamesVRoy wrote:
johnjaypl wrote:
Quote:
OK, so to the point. I've been reading about Fender Custom Shop, and there seems to be this belief that the guitars that are being made today are sub-par in comparison to the models that were produced in the '90s.


One way to judge how much better people think the 90s guitars are is by what they're willing to pay for them. In general, I haven't noticed "Page" era guitars getting big premiums. On the other hand "Cunetto's" do get a premium. As I recall, the price difference between a Cunetto and standard Custom shop guitar was something like 20% back in the day. Cunetto's are now worth a lot more then their 90s price but the standard 90s custom shop guitars don't do nearly as well.


Vince didn't make the guitars, he relic'd parts, built by Fender and ultiimately returned to and assembled in the custom Shop. The whole Cunetto thing is a myth in its own right. You're right though, their price is reflective of an opinion, not a measure of quality.

What are you talking about. I have spoken back and forth with MR Cunetto about several guitars. You need to be careful.


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:30 am
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Quote:
Vince didn't make the guitars, he relic'd parts, built by Fender and ultiimately returned to and assembled in the custom Shop. The whole Cunetto thing is a myth in its own right. You're right though, their price is reflective of an opinion, not a measure of quality
What are you talking about. I have spoken back and forth with MR Cunetto about several guitars. You need to be careful

He needs to be careful of what?
It is well known that Mr Cunetto & his team only reliced the parts. BTW, I had several Relics from the Cunetto era, my MBs from the early 2000s are much better in aging. I had an Olympic white 60's Relic which was finished by Cunetto. Looked like a bad refin with Orange peel.


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