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Post subject: urban legend?
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:10 pm
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I am new to the whole custom shop scene. I bought my first one last fall. I love to read and learn as much as I can when I buy things. It helps me to ensure that I am getting what I truly want. Unfortunately, I often learn things after the fact - such as the ocean turquoise '62 jaguar reissue I bought. beautiful color but Fender didn't start using Ocean Turquoise until '66. Sherwood Green was the only green available in '62.

OK, so to the point. I've been reading about Fender Custom Shop, and there seems to be this belief that the guitars that are being made today are sub-par in comparison to the models that were produced in the '90s. Apparently, the last of the great builders died with John English - no disrespect meant, this is what I am reading.

For those of you who have been into FCS guitars for a while, is there any truth to this, or is it purely urban legend? During the early years did they really take more time and care in making the guitars or are people just hanging on to some nostalgia? I get the argument that the prices have gone up, but basic economics helps me understand the laws of supply and demand, so I cannot fault FCS for that.

I love all of my FCS guitars and dont have any regret. Please don't get me wrong - or take me out of context. I just have never played any of the ones made in the '90s. My only criticism to FCS is that I wish they would differentiate if something is truely vintage correct or if it has been "hot-rodded" (this includes accurate paint color to year, fret size and radius - though in the '50s there was not a custom color chart so I suppose you would have to go off of the dupont colors that were available each year to get as accurate as possible - such as dakota red was not available until '58 for example so a '56 strat in dakota red would be incorrect. according to Wheelers book, Cimarron red would be the correct red).

Is what I am reading urban legend or is there any truth to it? are corners being cut today for higher profit that the early custom shop models did not take?

BTW, Mike or anyone else from Fender / FCS that reads this, I hope you don't take offense to this post. I'm sure you feel just as passionate about what you are doing today than you did in the '90s. I am just looking to seperate truth from urban legend. What makes those '90s guitars so great and the current ones less than?


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:12 pm
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Where are you reading this?


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:07 pm
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Just a classic case of things were better back in my day, a way for some to feel superior.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:13 am
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"What makes those '90s guitars so great and the current ones less than?"
Really ??? :roll:
BTW: Cimarron Red was a specific color only used on the Bill Carson Stratocaster.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:15 am
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alainlafrance wrote:
"What makes those '90s guitars so great and the current ones less than?"
Really ??? :roll:


thanks for putting some thought into your answer. my guess from your reply is that there is no truth in what I have read, which I am glad to see.

Quote:
BTW: Cimarron Red was a specific color only used on the Bill Carson Stratocaster.


so, I have thought about how I want to respond to this. I am open to learning something new, so let me start by sharing where I got my information:

According to the book The Fender Stratocaster By A. R. Duchossoir the origin of Cimarron Red is:
Quote:
…”it was called Cimarron Red, the reason being the Leon McAuliffe, a steel-guitar player who had a working arrangement with Leo Fender for many years, liked that particular finish. The name actually came from the Cimarron Ballroom in Tulsa, Oklohoma. That’s a big ballroom that Leon owned and that’s where his band was. He picked out the paint, sent it to Leo and called it Cimarron Red. So, we had that particular finish there and I had one Stratocaster painted for me in that color.”


The following will be referenced from Celebrating 50 Years of the Fender Strat, by Tom Wheeler.

P98.
Quote:
Other early Strats built for Bill Carson and bluesman Pee Wee Crayton were painted a solid color later called Dakota Red (Carson had called it "Cimarron" red).


P105.
Quote:
(a picture of a 55 strat) By most accounts, the unofficial and very early Cimarron Red, a name coined by Bill Carson, evolved into Dakota Red.


P111.
Quote:
a '58 strat in Dakota Red. similar in color, but due to aging, no way to know if it is the same color as the strat on P105.


So Wheeler seems to use Dakota Red and Cimarron Red interchangeably. I'll move on to my next reference so you can see the problem with that.

The next quotes taken from http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html:

Quote:
To understand Fender custom colors you have to know what the colors are based on. The answer, of course, is automobiles. Cars in the United States had more social influence than just about anything at the time (even more than Elvis). Fender's only in-house paint mixes during the 50's and 60's were Sunburst and Blond (and Candy Apple Red to a point: more on this color later). All other colors originated directly from the cars of the time, and most of these colors were from General Motor's cars. "


Quote:
Custom colors weren't standardized until 1960, when the first custom color chart was available from Fender. Before 1960, custom colors were (for the most part) selected by the customer, not by Fender. The 1956 Fender catalog states, "Stratocaster guitars are available in DuPont Duco colors of the player's choice at an additional 5% cost". Because of this, 1950's custom color Fenders are true custom colors. Therefore it is impossible to determine exactly which colors Fender used in the 1950's. We can only guess that a metallic blue 1958 Strat is Lake Placid Blue, especially if it was stored "environmentally unfriendly". But we can rule out some colors for some years from the "standard" list. For example, you best not be calling your red 1956 Strat "Dakota Red"; the earliest you'll see the actual color Dakota Red used is 1958, the year it was introduced on Cadillacs.


There is a great chart on the page that shows the color, what years fender used it, and what year it was available from a car manufacturer and which car it was actually on. Unfortunately, I don't know how to paste it here and retain its table format.

This quoteleads me to believe the 55 referenced in Wheelers book pre-dates Carsons as his was a '57.
Quote:
A prime example of a relatively early Custom Color Strat is Bill Carson's '57 Cimarron Red Stratocaster.


However, it is possible that factory refin's exist of earlier strats. read the following quote from the same source as above:
Quote:
Another interesting aspect of vintage Custom Colors is the "Fender factory refin", a refinishing performed in the same era so the color is correct although it's the second finish on the guitar. At one time, collectors sneered at these compared to the completely original Custom Color examples, but, as time passes and there are fewer and fewer guitars available and higher and higher prices being paid for them, the factory refin has become the next best thing to the original.

The way to know if you have a refin that was done at the Fender factory is to look at the disassembled guitar. You'll more than likely see a stamped abbreviation in the new finish under the pickguard that will read something like C.A.R. for Candy Apple Red, or B.Mist for Burgundy Mist.


So, the conclusion I must draw is that Cimarron Red pre-dates Dakota Red, was a custom color, and was used on more than just Bill Carson's guitar.


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:29 am
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Butterscotch wrote:
Where are you reading this?


I would love to say I read it from a book or could quote it as well as I did my dakota red example, but unfortunately, it comes from reading message boards, such as the gear page and strat-talk, ebay auctions and youtube videos.

On one hand, I'm disappointed no one really refuted the claim with anything substantial. the lack of argument against the claims doesn't dis-prove it to be true. I know the source of the "urban legend" is not necessarily credible, but it might be true for those individuals, and when enough of them say the same thing, there usually is some truth in it.

Like I said, I love my custom shops and do not believe in any way that they are lessor guitars. I just wanted to know why people were saying the earlier ones were better built than the current ones. I can't really see why there would have been much of a draw to them at the time. I remember 10-15 years ago '60s strats were only in the $3000 range (I couldn't afford at the time) - which is what the average custom shop goes for today.


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:32 am
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This is Dakota Red:
Image
and this is Cimarron Red:
Image
If you think it's the same colour, there is a problem.... :roll:
PS this is one of the 100 reissues made under the supervision of Bill Carson himself.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:20 am
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Thanks for the post Alain. Based on your pictures, we can say that Wheeler was wrong in his book in identifying colors. That still does not mean that Dakota Red existed in '56.

Since we know that Dakota Red was used on Cadillacs, lets look at color wheels.

1956
Image

1957
Image

The first Cadillac color option of Dakota(h) Red is 1957. Since car colors usually came before strat colors - again, difficult to tell since there was no custom color list at the time, I think it is still a safe bet that a '56 dakota red is either a refin or another shade of red that is similar.

What I can buy as an argument is that the '56 custom shop in dakota red is an approximation to a custom painted red strat from that period - but not necessarily vintage correct to a guitar that predates '57. I thought I had read somewhere when Dupont actually first made the color available and when it would have been available to fender but I can't seem to find that link.

BTW, thanks Alain for participating in the thread. I hope I haven't frustrated you too much. :D I hope we can all sort this out and learn something in the process.


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:47 am
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"BTW, thanks Alain for participating in the thread. I hope I haven't frustrated you too much."
This Forum is to exchange ideas and opinions, you're welcome to raise such kind of question as I can see you have investigated a lot , which is fine.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:26 am
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sikoniko wrote:
What I can buy as an argument is that the '56 custom shop in dakota red is an approximation to a custom painted red strat from that period - but not necessarily vintage correct to a guitar that predates '57. I thought I had read somewhere when Dupont actually first made the color available and when it would have been available to fender but I can't seem to find that link.


This may not add much to your points or even answer a question but model year automobiles in America are traditionally introduced in the fall of the preceding year. Designs are completed, materials acquired and the factories begin/began retooling around summer. A color offered for a 1957 Cadillac would likely have been available by mid 1956 at the latest. Whether it actually found its way to Fender at that time I've no idea.

Quote:
On one hand, I'm disappointed no one really refuted the claim with anything substantial. the lack of argument against the claims doesn't dis-prove it to be true. I know the source of the "urban legend" is not necessarily credible, but it might be true for those individuals, and when enough of them say the same thing, there usually is some truth in it.


I would have to say that you posted this claim with nothing substantial so there's little to refute.

Regarding the issue of early Custom shop instruments and contemporary, I would not say they were better or worse but the department was smaller, there were fewer produced and possibly, except for the case of master built, I would guess, fewer hands involved with any individual instrument.
Since then the department has grown with demand and as you well know there are various versions of custom, like team built and master built. Better or worse are subjective terms and they are usually unfairly applied enmasse when they should really be compared individually on a per instrument basis. As yet I've seen nothing in this thread in terms of any specific example of any instrument being better or worse than another. I've seen more than my share of custom shop instruments both early and contemporary and nothing to suggest the quality now is less than the quality then.

I'd like to add further that my opinion is based on years of exposure. I've met many of the builders in the shop over the years, several I can call friends. John English (sadly missed by many) was among them. They are/were all tops at their trade.

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:49 am
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One aspect that can occur from reading message boards only is that one can get a rather skewed image of what is really true. There are a lot of "bashers" out there who seem to get a thrill by bashing the Custom Shop and its products! Just ask Mike Eldred about it!
The ones with the negative views tend to be very vocal in their dislike of certain things. Take Custom Shop Relics, for instance! Almost every thread that gets started on those ends up being shut down by mods. Why? Because of the bashers!

While I'll admit that I can only offer a small cross-section of instruments from which to make judgements, I have owned several Custom Shop guitars from the early 90s right up to the present day...well, last year to be exact, and I can say that there is absolutely no indication that there is anything "sub-par" with any of them. In fact, if one is looking at reissues of vintage guitars, they are now built to a higher standard of accuracy than the early CS models were.

There is no doubt that the late John English was a superb builder, but so are all the present guys at the Custom Shop, and a suggestion that they are producing less than first class work is not only patently untrue, but could also be considered an insult to their craftsmanship.

I happen to have met all of the Masterbuilders at one time or another, and all of them are totally dedicated to producing the finest guitars that you can find anywhere! :)


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:24 am
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sikoniko wrote:
I would love to say I read it from a book or could quote it as well as I did my dakota red example, but unfortunately, it comes from reading message boards, such as the gear page and strat-talk, ebay auctions and youtube videos.

On one hand, I'm disappointed no one really refuted the claim with anything substantial. the lack of argument against the claims doesn't dis-prove it to be true. I know the source of the "urban legend" is not necessarily credible, but it might be true for those individuals, and when enough of them say the same thing, there usually is some truth in it.

Like I said, I love my custom shops and do not believe in any way that they are lessor guitars. I just wanted to know why people were saying the earlier ones were better built than the current ones. I can't really see why there would have been much of a draw to them at the time. I remember 10-15 years ago '60s strats were only in the $3000 range (I couldn't afford at the time) - which is what the average custom shop goes for today.


If you read it on the Internet, it must be true. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:53 am
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JamesVRoy wrote:
This may not add much to your points or even answer a question but model year automobiles in America are traditionally introduced in the fall of the preceding year. Designs are completed, materials acquired and the factories begin/began retooling around summer. A color offered for a 1957 Cadillac would likely have been available by mid 1956 at the latest. Whether it actually found its way to Fender at that time I've no idea.


This is a possible explaination. It would seem we are asking the question, which came first, the chicken or the egg?


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:11 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
If you read it on the Internet, it must be true. :lol:


I will take this as a comment on both of my points and will address it accordingly.

In regards to Dakota Red:
In this case, Fender did not keep a record of colors, database of models, serial numbers or track of colors used back then. So where else are you going to find what is "true"? Alain helped me realize what Tom Wheeler was calling Cimarron Red is incorrect. All bets are off the table when it comes to custom colors pre-1960 at this point. The best way to guess would be to look at the different car make color pallets for a given year and it is possible there is a custom color strat that matches it - though unlikely.

In regards to my "Urban Legend":
I appreciate the people who took the time to re-assure me that what FCS is doing is top knotch. I didn't doubt it, but unlike anything it is a little disheartening to see people bash something you are emotionally attached to, and I am to my guitars. They are an extension of me.

When it comes to reviews, the pendulum can swing either way just as far. BUT, as a consumer who tries to make educated purchases on everything, I find reviews can be a helpful way to confirm my decision in making a purchase. I can't believe there is one person on this board that doesn't read a review and purchase solely based on manufacturers marketing.

Its not the people that totally bash FCS that get to me or even the ones that like different models from different makers. Its the ones that say they used to like it, but for whatever reason have lost their brand loyalty. This does give me caution. It should also bother FCS. They are after all a business. Isn't Leo Fender the Henry Ford of his generation?

So, when people say "they aren't what they used to be", as a consumer who has not been invested very long, I want to find out if there is any truth to it. I chose to come here and ask thinking you guys would be the most educated and help me !@$ it in the bud.

So, while your response was less-than helpful, I am greatful for those that did chime in.

Thank you, :D
Dan


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Post subject: Re: urban legend?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:56 pm
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Hard to find, apart from here, people who had the chance to enjoy playing '90 '00 and '10 Fender Custom Shop guitars.
I am proud to be part of that bunch.
I must say that I have never seen any "drop" in the quality of the output of the Fender CS.
Believe me, I know , I've many (I mean many) of them from the very beginning up to now.
What you read is not first hand and from various people possibly not enclined to support Fender's successful efforts to bring the very best to their clients.

"I can't believe there is one person on this board that doesn't read a review and purchase solely based on manufacturers marketing."
Me :roll:
But I'm enclined to One-Offs or very Limited Editions so I really don't care about Musician's Friend opinion, if any :D
Facts, please facts; we are open to discuss on actual duly evidenced facts.

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