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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:58 am
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You could try taking it in and having the slot cut a hair deeper or changing to a different string guage first to see if it goes away or otherwise affects the problem.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:15 am
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edwardd wrote:
Thanks for the advice JamesVRoy, but I removed the old nut just this morning in anticipation of the new one arriving (snapping it in the process :oops: ) I could have tried a thicker gauge string but I'd be left with a bunch of 046's out of the sets I buy.

All the best. :)


If you snapped the nut, did you or were you prying it upwards to remove it.... :shock: :?:

When removing a nut, it should be slid or pushed out, tapped out from either the low E side or the High E side of the nut. More than likely you need to tap it both ways to loosen it up then it should just slide out by being tapped out.
A nut is held in place by a tiny dab of glue, but the nut is fitted to the slot so it sits snuggly inside the slot.
You are very lucky you did not rip out some of the grain on either side of the nut when you pried it up.

As far as your harmonic issue, I would suspect that (1) is the intonation of open E and harmonic at the 12th fret dead on.. :?: if not fore or aft saddle adjustment is needed.
(2) A dead E string
(3) the bottom of the string slots should be round and the angle of the slot from the edge ( fingerboard side ) should match the angle of the particular string from nut to tuner post.
(4) The top of each string should be flush with the top of the nut once the slot is cut.

Concerning the way you broke off the nut in removal, I strongly suggest having a reputable tech reinstall the new nut. They are very easy to screw up and once miscut have to be replaced.. Just a cautionary advice.

I also have a 56 NOS ( built by Mike Eldred ) and would be very careful if not reluctant to work on it without really knowing what to do. These are not Squier guitars to be experimented upon...They are collectables and fine instruments, they can take a lot of wear and tear as from normal playing, but are rather fragile concerning adjustment and hardware set-up.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:38 pm
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edwardd wrote:
Hi 53magnatone,

When removing the nut I scored around it to release the clear coat and lightly tapped it side to side before lifting gently. It was a tight fit in the slot, rather than a snug fit. Checking it with a straight edge against a light source and also a vernier caliper I found the faces were uneven, which I find strange for a part that is moulded. I've repaired the nut today; drilled a tiny hole in both pieces and joined the two with a metal rod and araldite.

(1) I'm pretty sure it's not intonation, As mentioned when I inserted a fingernail against the string in its slot the harmonic stopped.

(2) No dead strings. I've tried brand new strings, although not a bigger gauge yet.

(3) A closer inspection of the nut revealed that the slot was like the bottom half of an upper case D character, round on one side, cornered on the other. The slots do have the correct gentle $@!&# down toward the tuner side.

(4) I suppose it depends on the type of action that's trying to be achieved, yes? Many online tutorials suggest that only half or 3/4 of the string should sit below the top edge of the nut. But wouldn't want to argue, I give way to your expertise. :)

Many thanks for your advice. I understand about these guitars being fine instruments but in all honesty, I don't think mine is. With a dead E string and what I consider is a rushed nut fitting I think it may well be a second. I did wonder at one point whether the R in the serial number referred to Reject.

Today I fitted the new TUSQ XL nut and although a nice tone with slightly more sprkle in the treble strings, the dead E string is still apparent. When I say dead I mean it has hardly any attack, sounds like the tone control has been turned down for just that string.

Also today I fitted the neck from my `83 Deluxe onto the 56NOS body and restrung. I still had a dead E string with this different neck, which reinforces my thoughts about my guitar being substandard. I believe the body is just not reponsive to that frequency and I can't understand how this would have passed as a custom shop masterbuilt.

Cheers,
Ed.



I would think that with all you have tried at the neck end of the string, your problem lies at the bridge end of things. Low E saddle issue of some sort? Or (most likely) your pickups are too close to the strings, causing the magnet to distort the vibration/cycle of the string. When this happens, it is the low E that is most noticeable, and it sounds dull, sharp and flat at the same time. Which is what you have, no? I have put extra long screws in there to get the neck pickup to go down low and be stable.
Re: Nut issues -
1) dead notes caused by the nut: when you fret a note, the nut is out of the picture. The fret becomes the nut. You will only hear nut issues on the open strings, unless it is an over-wide, flat bottomed slot that allows movement from side to side when you bend that string. They "ping".
2) slot depth - If you leave half of the string diameter above the nut slot, you need to use a super-light touch, because the strings (D and high E mostly) can come out of the slot with aggressive strumming.
3) - The nut repair you described qualifies you for microsurgery! Dude, you dowelled it! Wow! When I broke mine, I glued it back together with cyanoacrylate, cleaned the glue off the sides of the nut and put it back in with a dot of wood glue.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:26 pm
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OK...Then ashtone is right, you should check the pickup pole height. As well as checking the saddle for contact points and adjustment, but I would not suspect that to be the problem since the string run thru the trem/bridge set up. More than likely it is a magnetic pole to string problem, as far as your guitars body not being responsive to that particular frequency, it is really overstated about the resonance of wood affecting tone in an electric guitar. Key word being electric, the string vibrating disrupts an electro magnetic field, that interference signal is then sent thru the electronics, cord to the amp where it is changed from an electric current signal into audible sound by the speaker moving air.
You can make a body out of just about any wood, but the wood has to be somewhat of a hard wood, for density, all the parts are either bolted or screwed into the wood. If the wood is really soft, say like balsa, the bridge screws would eventually loosen in their holes and the trem would actually move toward the neck ever so slightly, but enough to affect intonation and response.
Actually I may have to experiment with that in the future ( couldn't be balsa as balsa is unavailable in the states due to endangered species classification. ) But a similar substitute will do.

I'm curious as to why you chose to repair the nut.. :?: :idea: I have not used a tusq xl nut but usually replace the nuts and saddles on my guitars ( acoustic's only saddle & nut ) acoustic and electric with bone nuts and saddles.

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Post subject: Re: Resonance and tone
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:33 am
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Quote:
More than likely it is a magnetic pole to string problem, as far as your guitars body not being responsive to that particular frequency, it is really overstated about the resonance of wood affecting tone in an electric guitar. Key word being electric, the string vibrating disrupts an electro magnetic field, that interference signal is then sent thru the electronics, cord to the amp where it is changed from an electric current signal into audible sound by the speaker moving air.
You can make a body out of just about any wood, but the wood has to be somewhat of a hard wood, for density, all the parts are either bolted or screwed into the wood.



I've built quite a few solid body guitars, and I have to disagree with you on the subject of wood and tone. You used the term "resonance", and I assume you mean the way the wood reacts to the string vibration, and that it doesn't matter what kind of wood it is, because the resonance is acoustic, the pickup is electric, and those two things don't interact. Two examples of why I think it they do interact:
1) A Les Paul Standard and an SG Standard from the '60's were identical in electronics, neck construction and in the fact they were both mahogany. They sound very different because of the mass of the body, and the maple top. That is wood affecting tone.
2) A Strat can be Alder or Ash, even Maple sometimes. They all sound different, and light ones sound different than the heavy ones do. You can hear it un-amplified, and the differences can be heard in the amplified sound. Same strings, pickups, hardware, set-up...the only variable is the wood.
I do agree that resonant frequencies in the body and neck cancelling each other out would be unlikely to cause edwardd's guitar problem.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:56 am
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I just googled the question and came up with quite a few possibilities.
One obvious fact is that this is a common problem with strats. I was looking at the " Telecaster Guitar Forum ."
A recurrent remedy seems to be to raise the E string gauge from a .46 to a .48-.50.
I have to check what I'm running for gauge on my 56 NOS.....

A moment...

OK... I do not have a dead E string even though this set of strings has been on for about 2 months. All strings are even in sound output (audible).
As far as string gauge i'm @ 9.5 to .44 so I suspect that the nut is the culprit. I don't think it is too small of a string gauge issue. Since raising the string diameter has the effect of the string sitting in the nut slot in a tighter fit thus eliminating the loose and dead problem.
That TUSK XL is a plastic composite is it not ?

In that Tele Forum there is another post concerning filing out the E slot with 600 grit sandpaper wrapped around the non cutting edge of a hacksaw blade, using a pencil lead tip to mark out the slot and carefully angling towards the E tuner and filing as needed.
The OP said that solved his problem.....

This really may be a question for either Xhefri, AndyBighair or Nikininja As they may have an answer.
I would PM them and ask.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:15 am
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Very nice Bird's eye maple neck, mine is subtly figured, if that could be the right effect.

Good that you found the problem's and solutions.
The neck to body snugness is not something that would have occured to me since I have never encountered that problem with any of my strats. I have to say on both of my rebuilds, I plugged the original holes, lined up the neck's, marked and redrilled but used a larger diameter screw.
( the Bullet strat was assembled neck/body with what I considered substandard screws.)

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:45 pm
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I think it is amazing that you could remove the original neck, put on a second neck and still have the same problem.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:38 am
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From the picture, it looks like your neck/pocket joint is pretty tight, but even if there is a noticeable gap there, it shouldn't affect the sound of the guitar. If you think the problem is happening in that area though, you could try this; With the guitar tuned to pitch, loosen the four neck bolts a tad. You'll maybe hear some creaks! Re-tighten the bolts and re-tune to pitch. The idea is that the string tension pulls the neck tightly into the pocket and you get an improved "coupling" between neck and body!

Someone else may chime in and say that it is total BS, of course! :wink:


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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:08 am
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Butterscotch wrote:
From the picture, it looks like your neck/pocket joint is pretty tight, but even if there is a noticeable gap there, it shouldn't affect the sound of the guitar. If you think the problem is happening in that area though, you could try this; With the guitar tuned to pitch, loosen the four neck bolts a tad. You'll maybe hear some creaks! Re-tighten the bolts and re-tune to pitch. The idea is that the string tension pulls the neck tightly into the pocket and you get an improved "coupling" between neck and body!

Someone else may chime in and say that it is total BS, of course! :wink:


Hey no, I did that and it worked perfectly on one Strat :D

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:00 pm
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm wondering what a good joint should be as there's some excess paint in there.


If you remove excess paint from the neck pocket, be sure there isn't a lip of paint at the edge of the pocket towards the nut and on the treble side. Bevel that edge ever so slightly after you clean the mating surface, so the neck doesn't cause the paint to buckle and pop off at the edge when you tighten the neck screws.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:44 am
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"...It looks like my guitar may have been a friday afternoon masterbuilt or an apprentice piece. No disrespect and I'm no luthier, but I'd have made a better job of putting this one together..."

Ridiculous.

Take it to a tech. You probably just need a neck adjustment.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:34 pm
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And, you can probably understand my frustration that you are taking it upon yourself to replace the nut, remove paint, and make statements like "The R maybe refers to a reject" on a perfectly fine guitar without engaging a qualified tech which means you could have possibly done more harm than good.

We clearly stand behind what we build, and you should have taken the instrument either back to the dealer, or to an authorized service center near you to get things sorted out instead of experimenting and posting on this forum.

Just my opinion.

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Post subject: Re: 56NOS Low E harmonic and dead string problem.
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:38 am
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I just came back to this thread to see what was the result... :shock: :?: :?:

Was not aware up until now of Mike Eldred's replies.
Since I don't see any pic's, I assume they were removed, but by Mike's last post,,,

OP...Tell us that you did not refinish or attempt to repaint the guitar.. :?: :?: which seemed perfectly fine to begin with, except for an E string puzzler :?: :?:
If so I can understand why photo's were removed.

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