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Post subject: Clapton Brownie & Blackie
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:07 pm
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Hey Guys,

not really sure which forum this question would get the most intelligible responses but I have had very good luck on this one - so I will try here:)

I have been in the process of digging around for information on various Clapton guitars used, historically. A couple questions have popped into my head regarding Brownie and Blackie.

My understanding is Brownie was a 1956 strat and Blackie a pieced together hybrid (a 1956 body with a 1957 neck). I was curious if anyone would have any information about the neck differences between these two guitars. I understand, in general, that 1957 was sort of an 'eccentric' year for neck shapes for Fender strats - the "v" being more pronounced in that year? The 56 neck, I thought, was a much thicker neck than the 57.

If this is so, would that imply that Brownie had a much thicker neck, with less of a "v" shape than Blackie? Furthermore, does this information mean that a '56 CS TM has a neck shape similar to Brownie and that the '57 Reissue has a neck shape similar to Blackie? Ironically, I dont find that any of the Clapton Signature guitars have necks that similar to either the '56 or '57 reissues. I know his tastes change all the time (even from year to year, let alone over a 30 year timespan) but curious about his preferences during the Brownie and Blackie periods.

I guess the only definitive way one would know would be to feel all 4 necks, personally...but I thought I would try asking anyway. I know its probably an esoteric question to begin with but I am very curious from a historical perspective...and just trying to 'relate' on some level I guess to one of my favorite players.

thanks!


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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:45 pm
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"this is so, would that imply that Brownie had a much thicker neck, with less of a "v" shape than Blackie? "
Definitely from what his tech said.
As least the "Blackie" Tribute has a slim neck one could compare to a '58 (I haven't any '57)
Alain


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Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:52 pm
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alainlafrance wrote:
"this is so, would that imply that Brownie had a much thicker neck, with less of a "v" shape than Blackie? "
Definitely from what his tech said.
As least the "Blackie" Tribute has a slim neck one could compare to a '58 (I haven't any '57)
Alain


alain- i should have figured that you would be the first with some knowledge on this!:)

is there some quote out there from his tech that you are referring to? Any idea if Brownie still had a 'v' shape to it at all? or if the '56 reissue might have the same type of vibe?

PS thanks for the help on my clapton finish thread - you were right, what i was seeing was the finish sinking into the grain, which fender tells me will be a more common occurence with the thinner finishes that are popular right now and being more used. i ended keeping the midnight CS clapton - i dont know if that thin finish is what contributes to its ringing sound but it sounds markedly better than all the other claptons i had tried. thanks again


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:33 am
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alain- i should have figured that you would be the first with some knowledge on this!:)

.......only due to the holiday here :wink: Some outakes from the '04 Christie's catalog on 'Blackie' to your question:

"Is Blackie very different to play than Brownie was-because that was the killer guitar in the last sale?"
EC: Better.....Better.
"It's the neck you particularly like on Blackie isn't it?"
EC: Yes, it's the neck.
LD: Brownie had a much thicker, clubbier, neck.
EC: Yes, Brownie was a much more industrial guitar. This one is really
refined......( apparently talking about picking parts for the 'mutt'): The reason I chose that neck is because it has quite an extreme V. Its the most extreme V on a maple neck that I've found. It's a beautiful neck, it has a lovely feel.
"Have they managed to reproduce that neck on the Signataure Guitar?"
EC:Yes, to a certain extent. They've done it with an element of safety-they've erred on the side of being functional.
"How old is this neck"
LD:It's a '57. When they copied Blackie's neck, because of the wear and tear on top of the fretboard here, there's sort of a rounding which is a natural thing from the artist playing it...they tried to emulate that on all the Clapton guitars, by using a little glass slide... so it's not to sharp on the edge,,,,Because of wood being an organic material, and the fact that Eric's played that guitar so long, those little nuances and touches....couldn't ever really be exactly duplicated.

There's little more in these narratives specific to characteristics of the Brownie. I have attempted to search for a copy of the '99 Christie's catalog which might have more details, without success. I don't know that alain might possess one. I have seen Brownie at least three times during my trips to Seattle, close up and personal, but of course not to handle. The way this guitar has been displayed it is difficult to glean much about the neck profile. Grossly speaking, the guitar shows much wear.

A review of Custom Shop specs with respect to reproductions of guitars of that vintage show a preference for the use of what is defined as a 10/56 neck....apparently representative of the type of neck fitted guitars of that time. Also found in specs is the term 'soft V' for one of the guitars.

Hope this has help to fill in the gaps.

Doc

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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:40 pm
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doc,

as soon as i posted my response to alain, i actually started to worry that you might feel slighted - I was hoping both of you would respond:)

regarding your reference to the 10/56 neck...this is the spec that is given on the CS '56 reissue....did i also see a reference to 10/56 on a previous discussion between you and, i believe, stratokaster - one of the original triplet owners? I thought he was recalling an email exchange between he and TK where the 56 neck, and clapton's preference for them, had come up?? do you recall this at all?

btw, great information on brownie and blackie differences - just the sort of info i was hoping for. EC's description of blackie's neck certainly suggests that it was a harder 'v' than what we currently get on the signature models - perhaps further corroboration of your theory on the '57 HR being modeled after blackie, as that was a harder 'v' than the clapton model, if i recall correctly.

Alain, what were your thoughts on the TK masterbuilt neck vs the Teambuilt CS Clapton neck? wat the MB a more pronounced 'v'?

between you and alain, pretty much every clapton query seems to get great responses!


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:38 pm
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"Alain, what were your thoughts on the TK masterbuilt neck vs the Teambuilt CS Clapton neck? wat the MB a more pronounced 'v'? "

Yes much more ; it's a sharp narrow V neck which smooths in a rounder way upper neck. With its silky finish it's a really unique neck but you must have reasonably sized hands.

Alain


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:39 pm
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alainlafrance wrote:
"With its silky finish it's a really unique neck but you must have reasonably sized hands.

Alain


hmmm, that is something im going to have to consider carefully if i ever pull the trigger on a masterbuilt...my hands are not particularly large:(


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:18 pm
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[quote="ufboy73"]

Find the Oct 30 post by StratoKazter on this neck. It is self explanatory.

What I glean from the Christie's catalog narrative is that, due to play wear, the Signature Series neck ( which was a copy of the Blackie neck as of 1985: remember EC's observations on the copy) may be a tad less sharp a V than what the original Blackie neck was 50 years ago. Also, my take on the '57 Hotrod comes from the observation that it falls somewhere between the '57V( for vintage ) on my Gilmour (more of a C profile), and the neck on my '89 Clapton. We're talking 10ths of mm's here I am sure. I've played all three necks. I am not a Fender modern C neck fan, but the three I've mentioned suit me to a T.

Given my hands, which are a 7.5 glove size, I do not think you will have a problem with a neck the likes of what is on the Triplets.

Doc :wink:

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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:37 pm
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thanks doc - that was the post that i was trying to remember....'10/56, slightly slimmer'

that would seem to be an adequate description of the MB neck..i think i could really like that, as i liked the CS '56 'v' shape but thought the neck was a a bit too chunky front to back

another question on MB's. i see places like wildwood guitars have materbuilts in their stock...would these MB's have the same neck profile as the triplets or are they spec'd the same as teambuilt necks, just singularly built?


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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:40 am
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[quote="ufboy73"] I can't speak to how Wildwood places their orders.

To reprise the story of the Triplets, the interested parties wanted a Clapton dimed to the stage guitar and apparently made their wishes known to TK who is Eric's builder. Thus the guitar was crafted according to the design described in the earlier narratives, particularly with respect to the 04/96 variant of the 10/56 neck and, I would suspect, replacing the TBX with a conventional tone pot.

Does Wildwood spec out to this detail...can't say. Best person to talk to on this would be Todd. In fact, after all of this back and forth, were I you, I would contact Todd, once I've settled on the finish, and tell him you want a guitar to the exact specs as the Triplets he built in 2003, not to mention the fact that presently there is on the Forum a post of him with same.

That's what I would have done having had all of this aforementioned at my disposal 5 years ago.

To reitterate on the matter of the '57 Hotrod, nikininja has one at my urging and he is most satisfied with the playability of that neck. He as well, was waffling between the two guitars you cited in your commentaries.

Doc

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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:54 am
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alainlafrance wrote:
"Alain, what were your thoughts on the TK masterbuilt neck vs the Teambuilt CS Clapton neck? wat the MB a more pronounced 'v'? "Yes much more ; it's a sharp narrow V neck which smooths in a rounder way upper neck. With its silky finish it's a really unique neck but you must have reasonably sized hands.
Alain


I am given to understand that this kind of a neck carve is referred to in some quarters as a "boat neck" in terms of how the contour begins as a V near the headstock and flattens out towards the pocket, not unlike the hull of a boat.

The other consideration would be the radius. The '57 Vintage Reissue (upon which the Clapton is claimed to based according to Ducchosoir) would have had a 7.25, the current guitars are 9.5, per published specs. An interesting observation by Duchossoir in his book (3rd Ed pg 26) that the initial Signature Series guitars had an 8.5 radius. I do not know if that speaks to my '89. . It would be simple to have it confirmed by my tech.

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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:00 am
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When I said reasonably sized I meant not too large...

Image


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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:16 am
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[quote="alainlafrance"]When I said reasonably sized I meant not too large...

Thanks Alain...that graphic is a classic and I expect that there is far more variation in 'the pudding' that that time worn illustration. For example, the'57Hotrod has a 9.5 radius and a modified soft-V neck, the CS 'Timemachine" '56 closet classic has a 7.25 radius with a 10/56 "Boat neck" carve, and your guitar is a 04/96 mod on a 10/56 neck to Eric's preference.

This pursuit can be as maddening as shopping for shoes with the wife! :roll:

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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:54 am
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Doc ,
the EC "triplet " neck is far from the 10/56 neck whatever mod may alter it.
One is slim with a sharp V at the headstock,the other one is round and chunky from 0 till 21st fret.
Just imagine one could have a scanner which could slice the neck from the headstock up to the highest fret.
Many newcomers to this site; so even well known pictures might be of interest as a starter... :wink:
PS You can contact me through PM
Alain


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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:43 pm
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alainlafrance wrote:
Doc ,
the EC "triplet " neck is far from the 10/56 neck whatever mod may alter it.One is slim with a sharp V at the headstock,the other one is round and chunky from 0 till 21st fret.Just imagine one could have a scanner which could slice the neck from the headstock up to the highest fret.
Many newcomers to this site; so even well known pictures might be of interest as a starter... :wink:
PS You can contact me through PM
Alain


I've pretty much taken my cues from not only the narratives of EC and LD in the Christie's catalog on the guitar specifically referred to as having that neck but from the narrative of StratoKazter on the 10/30/08 postings and you yourself.

The kind of imaging you allude to, in my business, would be known as coronal sections, microscopic, MRI or CT, so I have a good sense of what you are trying to convey. I would really love to see those two necks portrayed as such. It would answer a myriad of questions.

My reference to the graphics was with the same intent that you supplied them, only as a basic point of reference. According to your colleague out there, neck on your Triplets are 3 of a kind. There are no others like them.

Doc

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