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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:20 am
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stipe_mills@hotmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry Doc but that is exactly my point. The fact that Clapton DID NOT contribute or was involved in the Blackie project is the more reason not to have such a steep price. I would think in my opinion, that if I'm buying a "signature" guitar I'd like the artist to get involved in the project since it's his name that's on stake. Take Jimmy Page for instance when the first Les Pauls came out in 1995 he sued Gibson becuase neither quality nor the specs where anywhere near his beloved Number 1. I'm sorry I love Clapton to death but without him being closely involved as David or Jimmy where I cannot justify Blackie's price tag, but here comes the irony, I would have paid the money for that guitar, and that's what GC counted on. Now can we all say $3,700,000 dollars? cause that's what GC received on November 24, 2006, with a portion being sent to Crossroads, I'm thinking GC at least kept 50%. Not bad for a day's work and a guitar that doesn't even bear Eric's hand signature (see Gibson ES-335 which does and Martin's Belleza Nera, Belleza Bianca, and 000-42ECMR) and was replicated by three different masterbuilders, Cruz, English and Kendrick, I'm wondering if there could be any differences in each model. Probably not right?
Cheers and thanks for all your comments this is a lot of fun guys,
M.


OK...if we reorganize this thinking abit we'll likely find ourselves on the same page.
First, let's agree on terminology. This is a "Tribute Series" guitar....a 'dimed' reproduction of the original, right down to 'the dirty underwear.' with a limited number of copies. This differs greatly from either the "Artist Series' or the Custom Shop Signature Series guitars.

In that you mention signature: the Artist series Clapton is signed on the face of the headstock; on the Custom Shop guitar, the rear. On the Masterbuilt, it may not be signed other than by the builder (as per alain's)

You should note that Lee Dickson and Eric are quoted in the Christie's catalog that at some point Eric began ordering his guitars from Fender without his signature on it.

We don't know exactly where the germ of the 'Blackie' idea sprang from, but it certainly provided the opportunity for GC, Fender, and Crossroads Center (if you read his autobio you'll learn how Crossroads is managed) to benefit financially from this.

Clapton's rehab center was to be the recipient of a portion of the proceeds of this venture so there had to be involvement with his people on that end with respect to using his name, the facility, and all the 'yadayada' which we may not be aware of regarding 'charitable' undertakings.

Some 250+ guitars are offered world-wide (likely mostly stateside) in a one time opportunity on Black Friday '06 at $25K retail. This, much higher than the SRV which preceded it. They sell out to a 'fret'! Even Alain got one! ( No Surprise!!...he probably had his order in before the paint dried on the first guitar...which went to Eric and was played, I think, at the Cream reunion in London.)

I won't speculate on the percentages, but I assume everyone's costs were covered, plus profit, and GC made back their investment. They were not as fortunate, I think, with their effort with the "Lenny" which they paid 600K+ for (remember, Christies asks a buyer's premium on these as well), and for which Fender asked $18500 for the "Tribute"

As far as builder variation, I'm seeing stuff on Ebay where potential sellers are touting the luthier, claiming superiority, one over the other. Not unexpected.

So all in all, the Gilmour Relic is incredibly priced given all it characteristics and if, the "Blackie" project had started off with Eric still owning the guitar, it likely would have priced out somewhere in the neighborhood of the SRV.

I am guessing, given the experience with the 'Lenny', that Fender gave some serious thought to pricing the 'Malmsteen', and I believe, from what I've seen in the GC catalog on-line, $12500 is going to be the price.

From the videos on the SRV, Blackie, and Malmsteen projects, these are well-worn instruments being replicated and one must give these artisans credit for their work.

In all, I believe we are both comfortable with the current price points for teambuilt and masterbuilt guitars. There is a thread in the "Custom Shop Forum'' which lists current costs.

Looking forward to hearing from you again.

Doc

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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:15 am
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This needs some clarification.
The Blackie was a specific batch ordered by GC with Fender.
GC asked Fender to produce a Limited Edition of a Tribute "Blackie".
Because of EC 's name involvement he required that a substantial portion of the price would be for his CrossRoads Rehabilitation Center.
Within the provided goodies box there are several docs for this center and EACH and EVERY one is delivered with a personally signed Certificate by the Man himself Eric Clapton.
DG might not have time for that .Thus partly the difference in price.
BTW I also own a Martin 00042-EC-B
The ES 335 from Gibson is FAR AWAY from the original; even the body shape is different :-(((

Alain


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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:19 am
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PS
Hopefully there were possibilities for Overseas Buyers to buy Blackies out of the GC USA monopole at a better prices...

Alain


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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:21 am
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Hey Doc,

Just a little fact checking, Cream's reunion was around 2004, Blackie didn't came out until Nov 2006, I'm sure he played it live because there are some pics of him playing it but it wasn't at the Cream reunion, I have that concert and he's playing a Masterbuilt Black Strat with AAA Flamed figured maple neck (beautiful btw).

We can agree to disagree in some points and others points are good common ground. One point that I would like to comment becuase it is very good is that you're right if GC would not have been involved maybe the guitar would have been less expensive, albeit not so exclusive. Who knows. But also consider that GC paid $US840,000 for the ES-335 and when it was sold it was nowhere near the price of the Tribute Blackie. Actually it was 10k, including Eric's hand written signature on the guitar, a DVD on the making of the guitar two COA's one of the signed by EC personally and the replicated Cream Era Case, maybe the difference in price is that these guitars where not made by a sole builder like the Blackie but by a team at Gibson Custom Shop. Anyway stuborn as I am I still believe 20K is really out there, but if I ever get my hands on one I won't think twice of paying that amount.


Thanks for your reply Doc and look forward in hearing from you.

M.


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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:27 am
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Why does this thread seem to be a which is better, the DG or the Clapton? Kind of reminds me of some older ones about MIM versus MIA. I love and would love to own both of them. I will give the nod to Alain's thoughts, and Doc has some great Claptons and knows what he is talking about!! :)
I'm just happy to own a Fender period! :wink:
Maybe I'm mistaken good conversation with something else? I'm not too smart you know. :lol: :lol:

Peace my brothers!! 8)


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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:45 am
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[quote="fhopkins"]Why does this thread seem to be a which is better, the DG or the Clapton?

This just kind of evolved into a personal feeling about costs and the lot. Alain's contributions, as a respected collector, always very valuable sheds light on interesting details regarding some of the discussion.

Good round.

I think we can put this one to bed.:wink:

Doc

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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:15 pm
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fhopkins wrote:
I'm just happy to own a Fender period! :wink:


ME TOO :D :D :D
There were days when all I could do was window shop!
Then I got one!!!

I am now still saving for my NOS!!

It will be old news when I do get her, but you guys have to be excited for me when I get it, ok, promise :wink:

I miss that new guitar smell :lol: :lol:

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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:20 pm
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Blue Jay Way wrote:
fhopkins wrote:
I'm just happy to own a Fender period! :wink:


ME TOO :D :D :D
There were days when all I could do was window shop!
Then I got one!!!

I am now still saving for my NOS!!

It will be old news when I do get her, but you guys have to be excited for me when I get it, ok, promise :wink:

I miss that new guitar smell :lol: :lol:


I'll definitely will be excited for you my friend! :) :wink:


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Post subject: Re: DG Relic vs. NOS - which is the collector piece
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:29 pm
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[quote="zzdoc"]Would someone with a Gilmour Relic kindly post photos of the top of the guitar behind the bridge and the bottom of the guitar below the jack? I'd like to see the details of the repair replication pursuant to the prior discussions.

UPDATE: Well...... I've seen one. Stopped in at the immortal Matt Umanov's Guitars on Bleeker Street in NYC's Greenwich Village.

#R44448 Relic...suspended in midair, under lights, turning slowly.

Bad move!!

No....I did not purchase THAT one, but I'm making some inquiries of the person I deal with as to the tradein value of my CS and Hiland against an NOS.

For those of you who have the relic I must say that it appears very well wrought...elegantly aged and not beaten to death like some of the others.
I can see the interest in that rendition, however, as with niki and his fiancee's dream of a Harley, compromises have to be made. My wife has already passed judgement on the price points of these 'aged' guitars and can't see the sense of it thus I wouldn't think of pushing it. New money buys NOS. My 'new' 20 year-old Clapton looks almost new, and the plastic is still on the trem cavity cover.

So we'll see what kind of an offer they can make me.

In the meantime, I remain in a GAS euphoria.


Doc

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Post subject: Re: DG Relic vs. NOS - which is the collector piece
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:34 pm
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zzdoc wrote:
zzdoc wrote:
Would someone with a Gilmour Relic kindly post photos of the top of the guitar behind the bridge and the bottom of the guitar below the jack? I'd like to see the details of the repair replication pursuant to the prior discussions.

UPDATE: Well...... I've seen one. Stopped in at the immortal Matt Umanov's Guitars on Bleeker Street in NYC's Greenwich Village.

#R44448 Relic...suspended in midair, under lights, turning slowly.

Bad move!!

No....I did not purchase THAT one, but I'm making some inquiries of the person I deal with as to the tradein value of my CS and Hiland against an NOS.

For those of you who have the relic I must say that it appears very well wrought...elegantly aged and not beaten to death like some of the others.
I can see the interest in that rendition, however, as with niki and his fiancee's dream of a Harley, compromises have to be made. My wife has already passed judgement on the price points of these 'aged' guitars and can't see the sense of it thus I wouldn't think of pushing it. New money buys NOS. My 'new' 20 year-old Clapton looks almost new, and the plastic is still on the trem cavity cover.

So we'll see what kind of an offer they can make me.

In the meantime, I remain in a GAS euphoria.


Doc


If Doc can't cure GAS then we are doomed to it !! :lol: 8) 8)


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Post subject: Re: DG Relic vs. NOS - which is the collector piece
Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:49 pm
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fhopkins wrote:
zzdoc wrote:
zzdoc wrote:
If Doc can't cure GAS then we are doomed to it !! :lol: 8) 8)


Patience....reality may yet bite.

I need at least 3K+ on a swap out to make this worth while. Your talking about nearly $5700 retail in nearly mint condition guitars here, and no one knows better than I how the 'pre-owned' guitar market runs.

I gotta pack it in. It's been a long week and I have a lot to do this weekend. I'll try to pickup on these threads in bits and pieces.

By the way...Mike may be off-line this weekend. He starts the next round on Monday and I've told him to take it easy. So if you don't hear from him aither privately or herein, that's why.

Ciao, ya'll :wink:



Doc

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Post subject: Re: DG Relic vs. NOS - which is the collector piece
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:37 am
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[quote="fhopkins"][ NOS.If Doc can't cure GAS then we are doomed to it !! :lol:

Well, they've offered me what I asked for in trade, so I we're gonna do this. :wink:

More later.

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Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:30 am
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stipe_mills@hotmail.com wrote:
Hey Doc,

. ...Anyway stuborn as I am I still believe 20K is really out there, but if I ever get my hands on one I won't think twice of paying that amount....

M.


Lucky you, there is one for sale at Dave's Guitar Shop

http://www.davesguitar.com/

Cheers

Alain


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Post subject: Re: DG Relic vs. NOS - which is the collector piece
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:45 am
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zzdoc wrote:
fhopkins wrote:
[ NOS.If Doc can't cure GAS then we are doomed to it !! :lol:

Well, they've offered me what I asked for in trade, so I we're gonna do this. :wink:

More later.


I very happy for you Doc!! :) Now you will have one of each! I was wondering about the necks though because if I remember right you prefer the V or soft V. The DG has C neck ,I hope you like it as much as I like mine. I would like to have a Clapton like one of yours though! Maybe one day! :wink: 8)


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Post subject: Re: DG Relic vs. NOS - which is the collector piece
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:28 pm
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I very happy for you Doc!! :) Now you will have one of each! I was wondering about the necks though because if I remember right you prefer the V or soft V. The DG has C neck ,I hope you like it as much as I like mine. I would like to have a Clapton like one of yours though! Maybe one day! :wink: 8)[/quote]

After I bought the '89 Clapton the necks on the other two guitars just didn't seem to feel right. Someone is really going to enjoy that CS I'm letting go of. What with all the excitement around here concerning the guitars coming in I figured 'what the hell', go for it. I get in there for around $850 including the tax and a 12 month no interest pay out. Shucks, if someone's gonna lend me 'money for nothing' I'm no fool. I did the Hiland that way too!

The other side of it is this. I'm 66. Every morning I see daylight is a benefit. I've studied and worked long and hard, and still do, for the benefits I deferred most of my life. So 'gather roses as ye may'. I had my kicks out of planning that CS, and acquiring the Hiland. Same goes for the '89 Clapton. THAT was a find. I'll get my rocks off on this Gilmour and have something again in common to share with a spectacular group of talented people world wide through this forum.

There will forever be the LP my wife bought me. A unique looking piece of music and art. An irreplaceable gift of the heart.

That, is a keeper. :wink:

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