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Post subject: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:07 am
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I am still a newbie to guitar playing, I think I have learned a lot in the last couple of years, mostly by reading this forum and doing research on the internet.

I can find a lot technical information on the web about guitars, amps, pickups, tubes, but I want to know about is matching replacement speakers to amps. Arjay, you seem to be the goto guy on this subject. I am amazed at how someone came mention a certain model of amp and you always have a couple of suggestion for replacement speakers. Do you have a formula for this or is it just years of experience?

A few days back I mentioned a new amp that is a new brand and you recognized that speaker the amp was matched with was a good setup. Wow! Can you or anyone else let me in on how this is done?

I understand impedance matching, it’s the rest that is a mystery to me.


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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:20 am
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omar59 wrote:
Do you have a formula for this or is it just years of experience?


A little of both, tempered by a "gut feeling" that's difficult to quantify.

As you mentioned, impedance is a primary factor. Matching source to load ensures the most efficient transfer of power from the amp to the speaker(s). Consideration of the maximum available power should be used to determine the handling capability of the system. Too much of a safety margin will not likely be a problem but underrating the speakers as used with an amp of specific power can prove catastrophic (such failures seem to inevitably occur at the most inopportune moments, like a live performance with a large-and-impatient audience). Cabinet type also plays a significant role in how an amp performs and sounds. Outdoor venues are best served with a bass-reflex enclosure, which offers superior projection and bass response. Conversely, indoor situations are often better addressed by an open-back combo which provides a more nuanced and intimate tone rich with harmonics and compression. The final variable in this sonic equation is the type and model of the driver itself. Personally I prefer old speakers (refurbished if necessary) over contemporary designs but there are many fine new speakers, some of which are quite adept at simulating the tone of a seasoned, older driver. The trick to great sound is finding and exploiting the confluence of all these parameters.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:20 am
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+1 on impedance matching and what Arjay said above.

I experimented with all kinds of speakers in the past and I found 2 types that I like, (And this is only my personal tonal taste, and they are not real popular with many players) For more powerful amps I use EVM12 L speakers, very heavy and they come in 2 power handling versions 200 watt and 300 watt I have one of each. And my new love of the moment Eminence Cannabis Rex speakers 50 watt power handling. They are made from hemp cone paper for the cone of the speaker. I have been looking for that kind of tone for many many years, very dark not too treble-ee and very fat/deep sounding.

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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:09 pm
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My process:

1) Give stock speaker a chance, become dissatisfied.
2) Google name of amp plus the word "speaker"
3) Sometimes email speaker manufacturer and see what they suggest - Eminence, WGS, Jensen, Weber, and Celestion all have good people answering emails. You can also find these guys participating on their own forums sometimes.
4) Become interested in a particular speaker or speakers
5) Read reviews, waste time, savor the process
6) Ask at a forum if this would be a good idea, including name of amp and intended use.

I find this gives more reassuring results than just blurting on a forum you want a speaker, because 90% of replies are just going to be guys shouting back their own personal favorite speaker.


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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:47 am
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Good informations here ;

https://www.cedist.com/tech_corner


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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:38 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
Good informations here ;

https://www.cedist.com/tech_corner


I find this passage to be particularly apropos......

"Choosing Guitar Speakers to Last a Lifetime

There is no standard method used by all amp manufacturers when selecting an appropriate speaker power rating. If you want to choose a speaker to last a lifetime, you'll want to choose a speaker that can handle the maximum amount of preamp and power amp overdrive distortion that can possibly be put into it and safely avoid exceeding the speaker's thermal limits. In the case of single speaker setups, this means choosing a speaker rated for at least twice the rated output power of the amp. For multiple speakers, choose twice the rated power that would be distributed to it."


It's the same protocol I've been adhering to for decades.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:01 pm
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Blackface Deluxe Reverb , a 22 watts amp use a 100 watts (?) speaker


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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:06 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
Blackface Deluxe Reverb , a 22 watts amp use a 100 watts (?) speaker


+1

Definitely overkill of the first magnitude.

A C12N would be much more appropriate for the Deluxe Reverb.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:40 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
Blackface Deluxe Reverb , a 22 watts amp use a 100 watts (?) speaker


+1

Definitely overkill of the first magnitude.


A C12N would be much more appropriate for the Deluxe Reverb.

Arjay


Since Jensen are not made in USA, I 'll choose another brand


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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:44 am
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stratele52 wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
Blackface Deluxe Reverb , a 22 watts amp use a 100 watts (?) speaker


+1

Definitely overkill of the first magnitude.


A C12N would be much more appropriate for the Deluxe Reverb.

Arjay


Since Jensen are not made in USA, I 'll choose another brand


As would I.

But the point of my observation is that a more sensible speaker for the Deluxe Reverb would be something in the 40- to 50-watt range.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:18 am
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Retroverbial wrote:

But the point of my observation is that a more sensible speaker for the Deluxe Reverb would be something in the 40- to 50-watt range.

Arjay


More sensible = more db by watt.

I don't think is a matter of speaker power handling .

More speaker power handling = more expensive and if we don't need why paid for ?


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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:53 am
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Those are good guidelines for a speaker that will last a lifetime, but for tube amps, better tone can be created with smaller speakers.
I have found that SS amps have more dynamic power than tube amps.
I use an IHF pulser, 20Msec on/ 480 Msec off. At 1 KHz, SS amps can almost double their RMS power. Tube amps don't seem to have the reserve power available.
So my recommendeation for SS amps are the same, double the RMS rating.
Howerver, tube amps are routinely overdriven. but headroom requirements are not so critical. So tone shaping by the speaker becomes important.
SS amps are generally used below clipping, so overdrive tones are not a major consideration.
My understanding is that by using a speaker that is more closely matched to the amplifiers power rating, the speaker is driven out of its linear response range and starts to compress the overdriven signal to good effect.
So for a 25 watt tube amp, I recommend a 25 watt speaker. Their peak handling power is usually within the tube amps peak output. I haven't had any speaker failures from using this concept, only good tone.


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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:12 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
So for a 25 watt tube amp, I recommend a 25 watt speaker. Their peak handling power is usually within the tube amps peak output. I haven't had any speaker failures from using this concept, only good tone.


I'm going to put a hypothetical in your lap and it's one that's occurred literally thousands of times.

The amp: A mid-sixties Super Reverb -- rated power, 40 watts RMS.

The speakers: Factory OEM Jensen C10R's -- each rated for 20 watts RMS.

Theoretically this should be an optimum match with the speaker array capable of handling twice the power that the amp can produce.

Now how many times in your career have you had one of these amps cross your bench with one or more blown speakers?

I've had at least a hundred in the 35+ years I've been actively repairing Fender amps.

Let's look at the same amp only this time the speakers are a quartet of Jensen C10Q's. Theoretically, we've got 100 watts of power-handling capability.

How many times have you seen this configuration with one or more blown speakers?

I'm guess I've seen it at least 30 or 40 times.

"So for a 25 watt tube amp, I recommend a 25 watt speaker."

Simply put, this is a poignant example of whistling past the graveyard.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:21 am
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Great information guys!!! :)


Thank you all.

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Post subject: Re: Matching Amps and Speakers
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:50 am
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It's my racing background. I guess I go for performance over reliability. I was the one who kept shaving weight off the rods.
While I have replaced a lot of speakers, most are old and buzzy or torn. They are the hardest working part of an amp and don't last forever. I accept that many fine speakers will wind up in the graveyard I'm whistling past. Thank you for your performance.
But too much power usually results in an open voice coil.
If the wire guage can't handle the current, it will blow a brand new speaker. You find out right away.
That I don't see very often.


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