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Post subject: Re: Product Line Suggestion!
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:14 pm
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I think the OP has a good point. When i saw the EC Vibro Champ i immediately thought wow that looks great, i want one, well until i saw the price. Let's just say it was a bit more than i could afford unfortunately.

I think if they had done some affordable versions of the EC range a lot more people could have potentially enjoyed them. They could have easily done the exclusive US top of the line range and then a more affordable one, either made in Mexico, or even a PTP version made in Korea or China. I know having them made in the Far East may put off some customers but i have to admit that i see a lot of good products coming from there. Fender would obviously monitor build quality and let's be honest - Fender has hardly shied away from having products built abroad for loads of other product ranges. For every person who rejected them there would be plenty of other buyers who would buy a well made PTP tweed fender amp made in Korea.

I really think some affordable PTP old school amps would be great sellers. Fender, and Gibson to be fair, seemed to have really concentrated on their more exclusive high end product lines in the last few years, nothing wrong with that but it would be good to see some real effort to put some of the wow factor back into the affordable ranges. For example, the Japanese Fender reissues had a reputation as good as the US instruments but then Fender management seemed to work on the principle that many buyers would still want the prestige of owning a US made product and it worked.

There was lots of really excellent stuff throughout the ranges. Now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that all the mid-price stuff is no good, i'm just saying that Fender could easily do an affordable range of tweed reissues if the motivation was there. The range would sell like hot cakes and Fender would get quite a lot of media attention from the range. Come on Fender, life doesn't end outside of the Custom Shop! Sorry, i think i got a bit political.


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Post subject: Re: Product Line Suggestion!
Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:53 am
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I think there might be some confusion regarding affordable and cheap and nasty. ("Land fill")

Fender make several cheaper valve amps in the Blues Junior and Pro Junior. And these come in tweed finishes for a small amount more. When you look at amp production, wave soldering and the like the production costs of a lesser spec amp are probably no greater saving than the difference in price of the components.

There have been a number of comments on this forum regarding the dubious quality of new Blues Juniors so we might conclude they are being made as cheaply as is possible.

When you consider RRP can allow around 100% uplift for the retailer, global shipping etc. you then start to appreciate making a cheap amp cheaper can throw up issues as the amp production is already cheap.

None the less Fender have produced exactly the sort of beast you suggest in the reissued Champion 600. (Still available until recently with the Gretsch badge). Great amp. A PCB version of a Champ - (The Champion 600 only really differed in cabinet and speaker size). OK the new 600 doesn't have a tube rectifier but the main circuitry is a good representation of the original if you compare schematics. Great amp, I have two and play one on a daily basis. Very popular if the number of YouTube videos is anything to go by.

So why is it no longer a part of the Fender range?

My perception is that there wasn't a sustainable market. You have to perhaps be something of a connoisseur to appreciate such an amp for its merits. This appreciation perhaps comes with age and experience. Without this appreciation, if confronted by two amps of similar price and spec (two tubes) almost everyone would go with the one with more knobs.

Digital based amps are dirt cheap to produce because they have almost no components. If you are starting out and can by a cheap amp that purports to be all things to all men why would you buy an amp with one knob?

So an original Champ reissue is only going to appeal to those who appreciate it's finer qualities. Such people are likely to have been playing for a period of time, perhaps aged 40+ and, as such, have the disposable income which allows for the purchase of a more expensive amp.

That said, there is currently a glut of 5w valve amps with new 5w micro heads appearing almost daily. These are no more than the price of a reasonable pedal. They use two valves and the minimum of components to make those valves work (The Champ circuit).

Fender has, to some extent, missed the boat. But I still don't think there is the market sector which warrants Fenders attention and the time and cost in maintaining a further product line. We have seen them fiddle with this with the Pawn Shop range. It gets sales because it is a limited edition but they weren't that cheap in reality.

So, in summary, if you want the prestige of a Fender badge you have to pay the Fender price and Fender aren't interested in devaluing that brand prestige.

But why do you need it to have a Fender badge? The Champ circuit is almost perfect for what it is. There are so many offers out there which are exactly that already. The only way you could perhaps get a more authentic Champ is through hand wiring and top end or vintage replica components...so no longer cheap. That will be the EC version then.

My recommendation - if you want a cheap Champ, and a Fender badge, get a second hand Champion 600 while you still can.

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Post subject: Re: Product Line Suggestion!
Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:31 pm
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I vote for a C/S 5E3.
Done the right way.
The original way.
Screw the China idea.

And don't mess with it this time.
(EC Tremo) :?
Give it time to sell.
Not everything has to move a zillion copies a week.
The Fender faithful will love you for it and the newbs will have something to aspire to.

My two cents.

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Post subject: Re: Product Line Suggestion!
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:36 am
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John Sims wrote:
I think there might be some confusion regarding affordable and cheap and nasty. ("Land fill")

Fender make several cheaper valve amps in the Blues Junior and Pro Junior. And these come in tweed finishes for a small amount more. When you look at amp production, wave soldering and the like the production costs of a lesser spec amp are probably no greater saving than the difference in price of the components.

There have been a number of comments on this forum regarding the dubious quality of new Blues Juniors so we might conclude they are being made as cheaply as is possible.

When you consider RRP can allow around 100% uplift for the retailer, global shipping etc. you then start to appreciate making a cheap amp cheaper can throw up issues as the amp production is already cheap.

None the less Fender have produced exactly the sort of beast you suggest in the reissued Champion 600. (Still available until recently with the Gretsch badge). Great amp. A PCB version of a Champ - (The Champion 600 only really differed in cabinet and speaker size). OK the new 600 doesn't have a tube rectifier but the main circuitry is a good representation of the original if you compare schematics. Great amp, I have two and play one on a daily basis. Very popular if the number of YouTube videos is anything to go by.

So why is it no longer a part of the Fender range?

My perception is that there wasn't a sustainable market. You have to perhaps be something of a connoisseur to appreciate such an amp for its merits. This appreciation perhaps comes with age and experience. Without this appreciation, if confronted by two amps of similar price and spec (two tubes) almost everyone would go with the one with more knobs.

Digital based amps are dirt cheap to produce because they have almost no components. If you are starting out and can by a cheap amp that purports to be all things to all men why would you buy an amp with one knob?

So an original Champ reissue is only going to appeal to those who appreciate it's finer qualities. Such people are likely to have been playing for a period of time, perhaps aged 40+ and, as such, have the disposable income which allows for the purchase of a more expensive amp.

That said, there is currently a glut of 5w valve amps with new 5w micro heads appearing almost daily. These are no more than the price of a reasonable pedal. They use two valves and the minimum of components to make those valves work (The Champ circuit).

Fender has, to some extent, missed the boat. But I still don't think there is the market sector which warrants Fenders attention and the time and cost in maintaining a further product line. We have seen them fiddle with this with the Pawn Shop range. It gets sales because it is a limited edition but they weren't that cheap in reality.

So, in summary, if you want the prestige of a Fender badge you have to pay the Fender price and Fender aren't interested in devaluing that brand prestige.

But why do you need it to have a Fender badge? The Champ circuit is almost perfect for what it is. There are so many offers out there which are exactly that already. The only way you could perhaps get a more authentic Champ is through hand wiring and top end or vintage replica components...so no longer cheap. That will be the EC version then.

My recommendation - if you want a cheap Champ, and a Fender badge, get a second hand Champion 600 while you still can.


Interesting points thank you.

I think you may have a point about this type of product having perhaps a more limited audience with more mature players being the biggest fans of such products. Having said that, if you'll allow me to take a slightly differing view with utmost respect, i believe there may be more to the issue than purely the demographic of the players. From what i can see vintage style amps tend to fall in to two distinct categories: the strict vintage reissue with no modern tweeks or concessions to modern players (i.e. Supro) or the vintage reissue that has some mods to make it more usable in a modern setting (i.e. Vox AC30 are fitted with Master Volume and Gain controls to allow overdriven sounds at lower volumes). I do think the pure vintage accurate reissue type of amp will have a more select appeal than one that has no modern concessions at all.

If we continue with the Vox comparison they introduced two identical product lines, the top of the range hand wired amps and the more affordable PCB based custom range. They could have been more cautious in their approach and gone with just one product line but they obviously believed the market was there to do a high priced one and a more affordable one accessible to most players. The result is one of the best selling amps in the world. They have managed to keep the look and feel of vintage Vox amps whilst at the same time offering some more modern user features and differing price points. I think Fender could have easily done the same with the EC range. The hand wired US made version and a more affordable version perhaps made at the excellent Mexico facility that was affordable to a wider selection of players.

I do believe the market is there for products like these. Having more accessible versions of the EC range might even drive the sales of the US HW versions of the amps as more players see them being played in clubs, studios, and even just people's houses. Those buyers who want a hand wired version of the amp are not going to buy a the board based version instead but those players who would like the HW version but are unable to afford one may well buy a good quality PCB version that was made in the Mexico factory.


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Post subject: Re: Product Line Suggestion!
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:03 am
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Telerick wrote:
.... Vox AC30 are fitted with Master Volume and Gain controls to allow overdriven sounds at lower volumes...


I'm not sure that an AC30 is necessarily comparable in this instance. It is, and has remained, a benchmark product since its introduction. There are comparable Marshall amps and comparable amps within the Fender range already.

The discussion here is if Fender should reissue a cheap Champ replica. The Champ is pretty much a one knob practice amp which found favour in the studio because of its low output and great valve tone. It isn't an AC 30 which is a gigging back line combo.

A Champ is pretty much the most simple two valve amp circuit out there. Something which is copied by so many manufacturers that it would be difficult to name them all. To suggest Fender should reissue it is a bit like saying Royal Dalton should reissue the coffee mug. There are too many cheap alternatives to achieve a sufficient market advantage to allow the volume production which would provide a cheap option no matter where it is made. The market would suggest £150 RRP for a combo is about as low as can be achieved (clone micro heads are around £120 and you need to add a speaker and cabinet).

I am sure Fender would sell Champ clones at £150 but I remain of the view (that even at this rock bottom price) there isn't the demand to make such a product profitable through volume.

I agree that there is a niche for the prestige hand wired version, as is demonstrated by the EC range.

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Post subject: Re: Product Line Suggestion!
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:20 pm
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John Sims wrote:
Telerick wrote:
.... Vox AC30 are fitted with Master Volume and Gain controls to allow overdriven sounds at lower volumes...


I'm not sure that an AC30 is necessarily comparable in this instance. It is, and has remained, a benchmark product since its introduction. There are comparable Marshall amps and comparable amps within the Fender range already.

The discussion here is if Fender should reissue a cheap Champ replica. The Champ is pretty much a one knob practice amp which found favour in the studio because of its low output and great valve tone. It isn't an AC 30 which is a gigging back line combo.

A Champ is pretty much the most simple two valve amp circuit out there. Something which is copied by so many manufacturers that it would be difficult to name them all. To suggest Fender should reissue it is a bit like saying Royal Dalton should reissue the coffee mug. There are too many cheap alternatives to achieve a sufficient market advantage to allow the volume production which would provide a cheap option no matter where it is made. The market would suggest £150 RRP for a combo is about as low as can be achieved (clone micro heads are around £120 and you need to add a speaker and cabinet).

I am sure Fender would sell Champ clones at £150 but I remain of the view (that even at this rock bottom price) there isn't the demand to make such a product profitable through volume.

I agree that there is a niche for the prestige hand wired version, as is demonstrated by the EC range.


I used the AC30 as comparison because it's just one of a large number of vintage reissues. But perhaps i should have said as they have done with the entire AC range from AC30 down to the AC4.

My point was never really about making a cheap version of the EC range but using the range of available options (i.e. PCB based, made in other countries) to make a version that more players can potentially afford. Fender has utilised all the above techniques throughout the product ranges is still doing so.

Though i do agree with you that there are only so many product ranges they can maintain at one time so maybe, as this was a niche product range from the outset, it was not viable to do a cheaper range of the same amp.


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