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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:00 am
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This discussion had me wondering about a couple of things.

How much of a factor does volume play in our perception of tone - clean or driven - and how we play?

In my 40 years amateur experience, higher volume always makes it easier to play dynamically. There seems to be a minimum threshold, that is fairly loud, where I begin to 'feel' the amp.

And what about speaker size?

Larger speakers usually have a, subjectively, better tone. There are exceptions, but quality 12" speakers seem optimal to me. Nothing wrong with a good 10" speaker. A Princeton Reverb with a 10" Jensen is awesome. But that same amp with a 12" Jenson is even better - in my opinion. 15" speakers might be even better but I don't have much experience with 15" speakers.

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:47 am
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In my opinion, the ZT Lunchbox is the coolest little amp of all time.
It's more than 1 amp (don't believe the manufacturer's hype), but this might due you well.
When you hear the warm sound, you will not believe its solid state.
I have one in my living room.

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:07 pm
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mhowell wrote:
This discussion had me wondering about a couple of things.

How much of a factor does volume play in our perception of tone - clean or driven - and how we play?

In my 40 years amateur experience, higher volume always makes it easier to play dynamically. There seems to be a minimum threshold, that is fairly loud, where I begin to 'feel' the amp.

And what about speaker size?

Larger speakers usually have a, subjectively, better tone. There are exceptions, but quality 12" speakers seem optimal to me. ...


I agree with you entirely. There is certainly a dynamic relationship between the guitar and the sound of the amp. You only have to consider playing with headphones and your ears can be bleeding but the guitar doesn't sing in the same way it does in front of a cranked amp. However, you can also convince yourself that you need that volume where, I have found, there are some very pleasant tones to be had at very little volume at all. You don't get to stand with your legs apart and assume the pose but you can still find the head going back and the eyes closing.

It is always somewhat subjective though and an amp with a hot overdriven sound will sound louder than a clean amp even if they are both moving the same amount of air.

Perception plays a large part as well. I agree that majority opinion is that 12" speakers are the way to go. Perhaps because that's what you expect from a guitar amplifier. but when you consider Layla and other classics were recorded on Champs, and the like, you don't necessarily note that it isn't a 12" speaker or indeed a 4x12.

Bizarrely I have only today resurrected a 2x12 cab with view to using it split for my stereo multi amp rig. Previously the rig was feeding a pair of PA cabs each loaded with 1x8" and a tweeter. They should sound awful (based on the "Guitars need 12" Speakers" rule) but they don't. But then we listen to guitar recordings through our hifi and it is unlikely that will have 12" speakers, and yet (subject to the speaker quality) it can sound great. So why are recorded guitars fine on smaller speakers but guitar amplifiers must have 12" speakers?

My lounge amp is a modified Fender Champion 600. It almost never goes above half volume in triode mode and yet my rig with a 2x60 Watt (solid state) power amp doesn't seem that much louder when cranked up. But then my 50W Marshall is too load to play in the same room?

One of the mods on my Champion was swapping the 6" speaker for an 8" (the largest I could squeeze into the original box). I was expecting dramatic changes. Perhaps my ears are getting too old but to say the difference is subtle would be an an understatement. I have two Champions - my modified one and a completely unaltered one and the difference between the two is again very subtle (aside the experience I couldn't conclude the difference in sound over the original is worth the investment, or effort) .

Speaker design over diameter is much more notable in my humble opinion. I swapped the (supposedly wonderful according to the blurb) 8" Turbosound speaker in my Bugera V5 for an 8" Jensen and the Jensen was much nicer. More mellow but without any loss in crispness. The original seemed somewhat brittle sounding.

And a final observation (no real conclusions here) My V5 has a 0.1w switch a 1W and a 5W. You would imagine at 0.1W it would be straight to 11 on everything. Not a chance, way too loud. But 1W really doesn't seem that much louder and 5W certainly isn't 5 times louder. How does that work then?

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:24 pm
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John Sims wrote:
mhowell wrote:
.
.
.

And a final observation (no real conclusions here) My V5 has a 0.1w switch a 1W and a 5W. You would imagine at 0.1W it would be straight to 11 on everything. Not a chance, way too loud. But 1W really doesn't seem that much louder and 5W certainly isn't 5 times louder. How does that work then?


Watts is not directly proportional to decibels. It is a logarithmic relationship.

It takes roughly 10 times the watts to get an increase of 3db.

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:21 pm
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mhowell wrote:
Watts is not directly proportional to decibels. It is a logarithmic relationship.

It takes roughly 10 times the watts to get an increase of 3db.


Correct.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:23 am
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And here's a strange thing - since swapping to the 2x12 I seem to be playing louder because it sounds so good. So it would seem that smaller speakers are better suited to playing quietly.

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:55 am
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John Sims wrote:
And here's a strange thing - since swapping to the 2x12 I seem to be playing louder because it sounds so good. So it would seem that smaller speakers are better suited to playing quietly.


The difference in total radiating cone area between the two speaker systems needs to be factored into any SPL equation. A single eight presents 40 square inches while the pair of twelve's offers 226 square inches -- more than a four-fold increase. Thus, the 2 x 12 cabinet is moving significantly more air per given watt of input power.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:16 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
John Sims wrote:
And here's a strange thing - since swapping to the 2x12 I seem to be playing louder because it sounds so good. So it would seem that smaller speakers are better suited to playing quietly.


The difference in total radiating cone area between the two speaker systems needs to be factored into any SPL equation. A single eight presents 40 square inches while the pair of twelve's offers 226 square inches -- more than a four-fold increase. Thus, the 2 x 12 cabinet is moving significantly more air per given watt of input power.

Arjay


I understand that entirely. And considering my new (old) speaker set up is a better impedance match (4 ohms compared to 8 ohms - the power amp is rated for 4 ohms per channel) it has the potential for more oomph again.

The point I was trying to make (badly) is, ignoring the position of the knobs, I am just playing louder because it sounds better that bit louder than the smaller speakers did. I don't necessarily want it louder but I can't resist it because it sounds sooooo good. ;-)

This being the case I am of a mind that, if you want an amp for playing quietly, sticking it through a 12" isn't necessarily going to be the best route.

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:21 am
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John Sims wrote:
The point I was trying to make (badly) is, ignoring the position of the knobs, I am just playing louder because it sounds better that bit louder than the smaller speakers did. I don't necessarily want it louder but I can't resist it because it sounds sooooo good.


Been there, done that (often).

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: 1 watt Amp
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:31 pm
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Sr4815 wrote:
So I originally started this thread because I I like my ht1r for higher gain sounds but can't get a nice clean sound. I figured Fender would be able to make a 1 watt amp to do that. Now that I understand about headroom I realize that I can't always get what I want. I think I am going to get a ht5r. Played through one today and got the clean sound I like and the higher game sound is pretty good at lower volumes. Sorry Fender.


Good for you. I have an HT-5C and it is my most-used amp at the moment. I replaced the speaker with a Warehouse ET65 and it sounds great. Let us know how it works out.


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