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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:01 pm
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There will always be people who think tubes are better no matter how good the digital gets. But this is similar to when Porsche changed the 911 from air-cooled (as per its original 1963 design) to water-cooled in 1997. Porsche-philes were shocked to their bones. How could this happen?? Guess what, people are still buying 911's and you never hear a mention about the water cooling.

(BTW trivia: Who owns the very first and very last Porsche air-cooled 911s ever made? answer: Jerry Seinfeld, and he has personalized license plates "FIRST" and "LAST" for each of them, respectively.)

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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:05 pm
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arth1 wrote:
stratele52 wrote:
There are customers for both .

Right now, there are, for certain.
But when companies like the Marshall and Orange step into the digital emulation waters, it feels a bit like when BMW released front wheel drive cars with electric steering - foreboding about the future.

I hope there will still be more than a niche market for the real deal, and that future players won't have to mortgage their house to get a real amp because everybody have gone digital emulation and no-one makes them anymore.


I guess there will always be three camps on this matter and that's okay. Those that choose tubes, those that choose SS, and those that choose both. I prefer the both camp, and I also hope they will be available and affordable.

Having said that, I'll tell you what my Dad, were he here today, would have said. He once worked at the factory for a big American car manufacturer. Needless to say, car talk was plentiful in our home.

He used to say, "It doesn't matter how you dress up the car. Until you change the basic design it will always be a box on four wheels" albeit with a different wrapping.

I wonder what he would have said about amps. :D

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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:08 pm
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Transistors didn't kill off tube amps back in the '70s. It's unlikely they will die anytime soon.

Will virtual instruments cripple guitar sales just as synths did in the '80s? I guess that's a question for another thread.


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:35 pm
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01GT eibach wrote:
There will always be people who think tubes are better no matter how good the digital gets. But this is similar to when Porsche changed the 911 from air-cooled (as per its original 1963 design) to water-cooled in 1997. Porsche-philes were shocked to their bones. How could this happen?? Guess what, people are still buying 911's and you never hear a mention about the water cooling.


A little bit different circumstances...Porsche switched to exclusively water-cooled engines because it became impossible to meet increasingly stricter US and California emissions standards with the air-cooled engines. So, they didn't really have a choice. AFAIK, no governments are trying to outlaw tubes :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:42 pm
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cthulhu wrote:
01GT eibach wrote:
There will always be people who think tubes are better no matter how good the digital gets. But this is similar to when Porsche changed the 911 from air-cooled (as per its original 1963 design) to water-cooled in 1997. Porsche-philes were shocked to their bones. How could this happen?? Guess what, people are still buying 911's and you never hear a mention about the water cooling.


A little bit different circumstances...Porsche switched to exclusively water-cooled engines because it became impossible to meet increasingly stricter US and California emissions standards with the air-cooled engines. So, they didn't really have a choice. AFAIK, no governments are trying to outlaw tubes :mrgreen:


Correct.

I believe Volkswagen found themselves facing similar circumstances when they decided to design a successor to the original Beetle.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:20 pm
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Digital amps are prevalent these days because the colleges are busy graduating digital engineers and little else. That's where the money and jobs are.
The analog skills and technologies are only harbored at the factories. The newly hired engineers are comfortable with digitizing audio and reinterpret the old factory designs to their sensibilities.
The same thing happened with transistors in the 60s. Then, as now, musicians pointed out to the engineers that their tone fell short of tubes.
There's always going to be new engineers that will want to try out newer, cheaper technologies to inflict on musicians. Admitting that a 100 year old technology is superior is hard to swallow and leaves a young creative engineer with nothing to work on.
So modern, cheaper designs will always be part of the landscape. Making it sound good at the lowest price is the factories target and these digital guys are gonna give it their best shot.
And while they may convert the listening audience, I don't think they will win over musicians. At least, not the ones who have developed good ears.
These are a few of the things the digital camp is up against...

The output transformer of a tube amp adds inherent sound processing characteristics that IMHO defy digital emulation over differing volumes. The bass saturation, harmonic supression and reactive coupling with the speaker are unique to it's construction.

The speed of response of a tube amp drives circles around digital circuits. Digital latency is measurable and apparent. The more you process the signal, the more latency you create. Musicians seem to notice when they drop a string and nothing happens for a few milliseconds.

The supporting analog circuits for the digital processors are also relatively slow OpAmps and electrolytic coupling capacitors.
Digital cabinet emulation may reproduce the response of a certain speaker, but the acoustic elements of combined drivers and ported enclosures mostly occur in the air and at a distance and a single driver emulating it is, again IMHO, hogwash.

So as long as musicians demand the best sound, there will always be tubes around.


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:28 pm
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cthulhu wrote:
AFAIK, no governments are trying to outlaw tubes :mrgreen:

Being that there are already bans in place on things like energy-inefficient household appliances, not to mention incandescent lightbulbs, don't be too surprised if there will be a ban on power-inefficient amps and/or vacuum tubes too.

Also, remember that you won't find a mercury-vapor RCA-83 rectifier tube in new products anymore - RoHS took care of that. It wouldn't surprise me too much if one day we'll have a barium ban too, which would impact both pre-amp and power tubes.

But I think the main danger is the public. Who will gladly buy emulations of the tube sound instead of the real deal if it's cheaper and/or more convenient.


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:19 pm
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arth1 wrote:
Being that there are already bans in place on things like energy-inefficient household appliances, not to mention incandescent lightbulbs, don't be too surprised if there will be a ban on power-inefficient amps and/or vacuum tubes too.


Whenever broader and ever-more-onerous regulation of human behavior is deemed to be appropriate, proggies can always be counted upon to propose it......from toilets to vacuum tubes.

:roll:

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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:25 pm
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The kids just starting out seem to like modeling amps. Since they are the future consumers business will cater to them. And since modelers are cheaper, parents will buy them. I'm thinking that the new players of today will be spending more time twiddling with presets than they do working on their playing technique.

Is a matter of weight for me at my age. If I'm going over to a friend's to jam, I'm taking the modeling amp. Guitar in one hand and amp in the other - one trip down the stairs and out to the car. Doesn't sound as good as the tube amp but I can put a little tube preamp in gigbag pocket and it gives the modeling amp extra warmth and richness while getting rid of that annoying digital sound.

I think there is room for both, hopefully the bean counters agree.


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:41 am
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arth1 wrote:
Are MP3s an improvement over vinyl?

Yes. Remember all that $@!& you had to do for records to sound at least acceptable? Calibrated tables, cotton gloves, wall-mounted so the table won't vibrate, antistatic dusters, expensive needles... and you STILL had crosstalk, popping and noise.
Quote:
Is a reverb pedal an improvement over playing in a stone cathedral?
Yes. I have played in a stoned cathedral and it sounded... not good.
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Is loudness compression an improvement over hitting the strings/drum harder?
No.
Quote:
Is Antares Autotune an improvement over practicing to hit the notes?
No.


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:04 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
arth1 wrote:
Being that there are already bans in place on things like energy-inefficient household appliances, not to mention incandescent lightbulbs, don't be too surprised if there will be a ban on power-inefficient amps and/or vacuum tubes too.


Whenever broader and ever-more-onerous regulation of human behavior is deemed to be appropriate, proggies can always be counted upon to propose it......from toilets to vacuum tubes.

:roll:

Arjay


The weak link in this chain is the tube. Yes, people will always demand tube amps, and we can always keep ours going by robbing parts from other amps, but the tube it self is the problem. There are no US manufactures of tubes. If I am not mistaken, they are all in China, Russia and former eastern block countries. Putin rattling his sabor puts the Russian and eastern block supplies in doubt. China is also flexing her muscles, not good for the tube supply.

Even if the tensions with these countries can be relieved, as mentioned before we still have the greenies to contend with. They have already had the 100 watt bulb banned, all they would need to do is pass a regulation banning the import of energy inefficient products and we are dead. Do not think it cannot happen, we have already had our "Fearless Leader" say just last weekend that Global warming is the biggest problem we face. He has also shown that he will do what he wants no matter what the people want, or if it is unconstitutional. Congress has shown they will not do anything to stop him, so we maybe screwed. :(

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Last edited by omar59 on Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:45 am
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I may as well jump in and throw gas on the fire... :wink:

The short answer is no...tube amps will continue to be around, but it's likely to be displaced in more and more applications due to convenience and economics more than anything else. And not just by young people that don't know any better.

I've been a gigging musician for over 50 years now and grew up with tube amps, and I no longer even own one. Can I hear the difference between tube and modeling. That depends on the modeling being used (Kemper, AxeFX, Line6, etc.) and on the song, but ultimately I'm only there for one reason which is my audience and I know without at doubt they can't tell the difference. That's the last thing in the world they're concerned with. They're concerned about how I play the song and does it sound right to them? I can't begin to tell you how many mediocre guitar players I've played with that INSIST on tube amps and pedalboards that look like an overhead view of Manhattan. What's wrong with that picture?

As a gigging musician every week the last thing in the world I want to concern myself with is lugging around a heavy amp that may or may not have some problems from being lugged around every week. I don't want to worry about a zillion connections in my pedalboard or knobs that may have gotten moved on some of the effects units during transport, I want to hit one switch and be setup with the sound I've crafted for that particular song. If my audience is happy with the sound I give them (which they are) and I can do that for less money and more dependability then that's what I'll do. My amplifier isn't an answer to my ego, it's a tool just like my guitar.

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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:24 am
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When television first came out, everyone thought it was gonna be "the end" of cinema and radio...both technologies managed to survive.

When FM radio came out, everyone swore it was "the end" of AM...seems like AM radio is still around.

When cable tv came out, people thought it was gonna be "the end" of network television.

When solid state amps first hit the scene, people thought it was the end of tubes.....


Why is it that when a new technology comes out, people start running around like chickens with their head's cut off? Why are people THAT terrified by change?

Obviously some technologies eventually displace old technologies. VHS is starting to go the way of the Do-do thanks to DVD and perhaps soon Blue Ray will replace the DVD. Certainly vinyl has taken a backseat to CD's (even though there's still plenty of vinyl collectors out there) and CD's have taken a big hit in recent years with the proliferation of MP3's...just as the automobile finally replaced the horse and carriage. If the newer technology however has distinct advantages, I'm just not sure how I see that being such a horrifying thing.......personally I get a lot of use out my mp3 player :-)

Ok...the folks at UA and Softtube made software plugin of a Marshall amp. So? I've used amp emulators before for recording and I find them pretty convenient, just as I find Propellerhead's Reason to be great for synth work and such while I'm recording. Doesn't mean I'm ready to start hauling a laptop around to gigs or anything, LOL!!! With so much recording going digital in recent years making home studios much more appealing and a viable option to many, audio plugins such as those mentioned by the OP have their place, just as traditional guitar amps still have their place.

Regardless of all this, here's the singular fact of the matter; companies such as Fender, Marshall, Orange and every other music maker out there are motivated by -1- thing - profit. Despite what some folks may fool themselves into believing, these companies are out to make money. Consider this; here 30 years after their introduction, do you REALLY think Fender would still be making those Twin reissues if they didn't sell? If there wasn't a profitable market there, they would have discontinued those a LONG time ago. From Marshall to Vox to Fender to Bugera, the reason these folks still make tube amps is because they sell...nothing more and nothing less.

As long as there is a demand for products such as tube amps, someone will keep making them.


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:05 am
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As I read through everyone's response to this topic, a few things came to mind.
When you played all the amps that interested you at your music store and came home with your favorite did it sound the same as it did in the store? Hell no it didn't, if your ears are that good! Put the amp in a room with hardwood floors, shutters on the window, then put it in a room with wall to wall carpeting and drapes, next put it in your unfinished concrete basement. Maybe you now think amp choice #2 or 3 that sounded a little too bright, or a little too muddy in the store would have been a better choice in the room where you keep and play? Now, notice in a year of constant playing the speaker sounds different, and the tubes are nearing their end. How much is it going to cost to replace them and bias as some do once or twice a year? Then...what the hell brand of tube should I buy to chase the sound I think I want? Tube amps are great but many of us remember going to the drug store, or grocery store every few weeks with our fathers to the tube tester when the television, or radios in the home and car caused never ending frustration (everyone sold tubes back then... that tells you something). I have three tube and two solid state amps and they all satisfy my old ears. And, progress is good and just gets better.


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Post subject: Re: The future of analog amps
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:41 am
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Interestingly, the Russians found use for tubes that the West had replaced with SS. SS had disadvantages as can be found in the MiG 25 link below.

The Soviets claimed that tube technology and hard wired electronics simplified repair in the field.

Granted, the older MiG example doesn't address the sound, but it does have some bearing. Are the Russians still applying this tube technology in the same way or have they moved on?

We all know that there were plenty more holdover tube applications in that part of the world, and, perhaps, some exist today, but they are dwindling. The less that tubes are required in Russia and China . . . the less need to produce them.

I have a 60s Marconi IV B/W TV image orthicon tube from my old TV camera (for posterity). It is as big as my thigh and has been replaced by a colour chip as big as a coin. When the first CCDs came out they had lag and looked unreal. We in the industry hated the first generation. Even today digital TV with all its advantages is being developed to improve blacks, resolution, motion, and more. Techs are happier not having to lug heavy tube kits to the football and hockey press boxes.

There are a few areas where tubes may still be in service and amps are only one. So the future of tubes is difficult to predict for sure.

As for MP3s, CDs, etc., one might want to have a closer look at the longevity, and the disadvantages of generational recording, and most digital formats have not matured and are subject to change.

Records with all their disadvantages, are over 100 years old and more are coming with a reborn popularity.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25

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Last edited by Fender Strat Brat on Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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