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Post subject: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:04 am
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I posted a long, rambling tale of why I'm on this forum over in the introductions if you have literally nothing better to do with your time than read people's overly dramatized tales, but now that that's over, it's time to get down to brass tacks.

What is the deal with amplifiers?

I'll tell you what it feels like to me. When I go to a guitar store or online forum and read reviews online, I get the same feeling from discussions of guitar amps that I get from those snobby beer aficionados or wine tasters to swill alcohol around in their mouths for a few seconds and declare that is had nutty tones or dark burnt caramel notes with a sweet finish of chocolate.

Really? Because all I taste is beer or wine. I feel completely and utterly unsophisticated, but maybe it's just that I lack the vocabulary to express what makes me like or not like a particular amp, and developing said vocabulary seems like a lot of work.

SO THE QUESTION:

I have an old Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I never have really cared for anything about it but the clean tone, which is good by my unsophisticated estimation. It's LOUD. A clean tone is all I can ever have at reasonable volumes. I want to practice and have good overdriven tones at lower volumes. This had me looking at a Super Champ x2 with its tube power and amp modeling. I tossed my Hot Rod Deluxe up for sale (hasn't sold yet) and waited to make the exchange.

Then I got to thinking about it. There are a lot of good amp modelers out there that I could just add to my HRD and probably get all the tone I wanted for practice/having fun a low volumes. In particular, I'm drawn to the idea behind the Line 6 Amplifi TT. It can work with my home theater or my HRD to wirelessly play music that I can then look up matching tones for automatically and jam alone with.

Any thoughts/suggestions?


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:27 am
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I'm with you (especially on the wine and beer analogy), but I'd look at the Fender Mustang line and give Line 6 a pass.

But tone is subjective. Try both out in a music shop and decide for yourself what YOU like best.


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:54 am
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Nothing beats a tube amp for sound, I have the mustang iv v2 its ok but cant get the cleans of a tube or sustain, only problem is that seems to be a lot of issues with the fender tube amps, want one but cant afford to be broke down at a gig, or at home I live 130 miles from nearest dealer, and need reliability thing is I cant afford the highest dollar amps out there, I like line 6 have some great distortion tones could never get the clean I wanted, I had a flextone III 2x12 and my friend said he would've kept that over the mustang series, and he's a great guitarist.


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:49 am
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I'm puzzled with the word "demystify" in the heading. I mean you've got a tube amp, & you're considering another smaller tube amp. So obviously you prefer the sound of tubes to dsp or solid state already, which is pretty much the consensus. The other issue in the debate is reliability, which tubes don't fare well. Cork sniffing aside that's the short & long of it. I've got dsp (Roland) & tube (Fender) amps. Both have their place. I've also got dsp multi effect (Boss GT10) & analog pedals (a variety), all useful. I mix & match with decent results but the best tones are w/the analog pedals & the tube amp. Again pretty much the consensus. Personally I won't use anything that necessitates a computer or tablet or cellphone, just my pet peeve.


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:30 am
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If you blow out your Fender you will regret it in years to come. Don't do it.

Small wattage all tube amps are really cheap at the moment (pedal cheap) and may give you what you want without loosing your beauty.

I currently have four 5 Watt tube combos:-

Bugera V5 Infinium - The most flexible with Vol,Gain,Tone and Rev. It also has an attenuator and headphone out. The attenuator saps too much tone and while the amp is very nice (I loved it before I bought the following) its sounds a bit sterile.

S/Hand Fender Champion 600 - Great little amp, playing it was like having the wax pulled from my ears in respect of guitar based tone options. Love it. No longer available new, can be had for around £100 on eBay or there is a Gretsch version which is identical in everything but covering which can be had new.

Another Champion 600 much modified as demonstrated in the Champion 600 thread. It takes a 8.5/10 amp to 11.

Classic - 5 I don't put a name as this is a basic chassis box and eyelet board kit which comes out of China and is populated and hand wired by partisan amp builders and sold under their badge (a kit). Mine is labelled "Marmac" but is of a time long after the famous Irish brand ceased trading. - Sounding like an amp snob :roll:

It is a Princeton 5F2a copy (amp snob again :D ) with Vol and Tone. It has a tube rectifier and it is my new favourite. Warm and responsive with "Layla" break up at room volume (just). A snatch for £100 on eBay. The tone control gives it more flexibility than the modified 600 and I am really looking forward to giving it an alnico speaker (amp snob again.)

The thing with wine snobs is they can sound pretentious but they have a passion for their subject. They are trying to convert a taste into words but there aren't words to directly describe the subtitles of taste which they experience.

Amps are the same. Its a sound, and a feel, and the way the amp works with you. I know digital based amps are getting better and better but they still don't do it for me over valves. They take a signal, digitise it, manipulate it to (try to) replicate what a valve does, and then convert it back to an analogue signal again.

Valves have subtleties, harmonics, compression and break up which I don't understand but know I like.

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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:41 am
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Wrote all the above (amp snob mode) and then wondered, if you want low volume break up why not just use an overdrive pedal?

Overdrive is (relatively) easy to achieve. Cleans are precious as you can make clean dirty you cant do it the other way around.

It sounds like what you really want is an excuse for a music toy... no issues with that, except, you will loose a great deal of time playing with the toy not playing the guitar.

Same advice .....don't get rid of the amp.

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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:04 pm
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John, thanks for the suggestion.

There is actually a Fender Champion 600 for sale by consignment near me for $110. Sounds like a bargain. I may have to pick it up. Seems to be a lot of talk about modifying these on the internet, and you mention that there is a mod talked about in the champion 600 thread here, I guess everyone in that thread it talking about the same mod? If so, I'll figure it out.

I'm also curious about this 'Classic 5.' If I wanted to hear one demoed online, are there any people (or you) who have posted such a video?

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:32 pm
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https://youtu.be/6eRFWkykwmE

Sorry can't paste as a link as posting from my tablet.

The 600 mods are quite varied. Many people seem to remove the tone stack but beyond that, capacitor replacements and speaker swaps are fairly common. Mine is one of the more extensively modified from what I've read. I've pretty much run out of things I can do to it aside ripping out the PCB and replacing it with a hand wired board. That may yet happen, not because it needs it but because I fancy doing it.

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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:10 pm
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It takes years and experience to fine tune your ears to develop an appreciation of amp qualities. How can I describe the Mona Lisa if you’ve never seen it. You need to hear good amps before you know what good sound is about.
The vocabulary is lacking even then as none of it has a basis in reality. What is warm to you may be a different characteristic to someone else. There is no dictionary.
There are many facets to understanding amp basics and many interpretations and arguments about what are the important factors. This is only my version. I’m sure others may take exception to it and we’ll both hear about it. Have Mercy, here goes anyway.

Amps have six basic characteristics that define their sound. Speaker, tone contour, internal gain structure, tone control, power, and quality. Selecting each characteristic defines what the amp will be suitable for. These are nuts and bolts choices depending on the type of music you play and some cork sniffing for your own personal preferences.
Speakers: number, size, cabinet, impedance
The number of drivers in a cabinet affects your sound. If you consider dropping rocks into a pond, the ripples produced are analogous to the acoustic waves from a speaker. One speaker or rock makes a single set of ripples. Two rocks and the ripples interact in an interfering pattern. Four rocks produce a complex pattern of interference. So a single speaker is for clean sound. Two speakers give a rock edge and four produce the fanfare of trumpets effect for the full rock sound.
The size of a speaker determines natural bass response. The larger it is, the lower it will go.
The suspension of the speaker acts like a spring with a resonant frequency. The larger the speaker, the lower the resonant frequency of the suspension will be. You want a resonant frequency lower than the range of your instrument because the resonant frequency will mechanically argue with a note played at that frequency. It will produce an annoying buzz. A guitar goes down to 88 Hz. Depending on the stiffness of the suspension, a 12” speaker has a resonant frequency of 60-80 Hz, avoiding this buzz. A 10” resonates at @120 Hz. A 15” resonates at @36-40 Hz, Which is good for bass guitar.
The cabinet affects bass response and dispersion. A speaker produces opposite polarity waves on the front and back of the cone that tend to cancel each other out. A closed back cabinet isolates the back side and allows for lower bass frequencies. This is good for studio recording and limiting volume in an apartment. An open back cabinet produces more sound per watt, but cancels low bass. This is a good for live situations where bass turns muddy.
A wide cabinet gives reflective surfaces to disperse the sound to a wider audience. A narrow cabinet projects the sound like a flashlight, focusing it for miking or use in an apartment.
The impedance of a speaker affects it’s dynamic range. Generally, a 16 ohm speaker has the greatest and is used for lead to cut through the rhythm section. An 8 ohm is for general use and a 4 ohm reduces dynamics for a bass to stay in the background,
For cork sniffing, each speaker also has its own voice and breakup characteristics which can’t be defined, but only appreciated by playing.

Tone contour is the EQ response curve of an amp. While a home stereo amp has a flat response, guitar amps vary their output depending on frequency. Amps can be as different as trumpets and tubas, but there are a few recurring themes. Treble response is high on most amps to compensate for poor treble response of a 12” speaker, from 1500-4500 Hz. Treble is reduced for overdrive channels to eliminate fizzy overdrive.
Midrange is scooped lower to match the higher sensitivity of the human ear in the 200-600 Hz range. Bass response is handled in two ways, depending on design. An amp for gigging with a bass player has little bass response to avoid arguing sonically with him. For solo playing, there is lots of bass response for a warm and full low end.
A lot of these characteristics are dictated by components outside of the tone controls, so it becomes a case of, ”You can’t get there from here”. If you have to crank the tone controls to the limit to get your tone, you’ve got the wrong amp or it needs mods to bring it into line.
Internal Gain structure
The internal gain structure is important to balance the dynamics of the band. Guitar volume is less dependant on the volume setting than finger pressure on the strings and the internal gain or multiplication factor of the gain circuits. A lead amp needs high gain to cut through the rhythm section. Conversely, a bass amp needs low gain to stay dynamically in the background. A rhythm amp falls in between. Most 2 channel amps can do rhythm on the clean channel and lead on the drive channel. The number two input on Fender amps is for rhythm. High gain is always accompanied by hiss. Low gain is quiet, even when turned up.
Cork sniffing for gain involves selecting preamp tubes of varying gain to achieve the proper feel for your fingers to get the expected volume from the amp. Low gain allows you to jump up and down on the strings and still not distort. It is more forgiving of mistakes. High internal gain is like driving with power steering. It takes a light touch to control it. Experiment with different gains in different stages.
If you need more gain adjustment than tubes can provide, changing the feedback resistor in the power stage can radically change the internal gain structure. Lowering the ohms of the feedback resistor will lower the gain. Raising it will raise the gain. Too much gain will oscillate at ultrasonic frequencies.
Tone controls I divide into two camps. There’s the Fender tone stack and then there’s everything else. I call them clean controls, even though they are not, not really.
I call them that because compared to the Fender tone stack they are comparatively clean. The stack circuit is cleverly designed to distort through the midrange. It is the voice of modern guitar. Leo fiddled with tone circuits all through the 50s. Once he adopted the tone stack, He discovered the Fender shimmer. After that, he only fine tuned it and everybody else copied and adapted it for their own amps.
The tone stack’s secret is to pass the signal through two capacitors, one small one for treble, and a large one for bass. This large cap introduces a phase delay in the bass frequencies, compared to the treble. So now there are two signals, one treble and the bass slightly following it. When the signals are mixed again at the output of the treble control, they interact. Where the high and low bands of frequencies overlap at midrange frequencies, they distort, cancel, then add to create the shimmering effect during decay. This is the standard circuit for almost all tube guitar amps. The values are varied for different ranges and brands, but it is the signature of rock and blues guitar.
Everything else will vary the volume of bass and treble, but won’t introduce phase error like the tone stack circuit. These other types are used for Jazz, acoustic guitar, and country. They are found in early Fenders equipped with just a tone knob, modern transistor amps for bass, and PA amps.
Power
Amps sound better when they are cranked up. There is less series resistance from the volume control choking off the dynamic range. The feedback circuits start acting like dynamic shock absorbers only past ½ power. Warm brown distortion only occurs at full power. So selecting an amp you can turn up is important. Five watts is plenty for bedroom or apartment practice. 25-50 watts will play most taverns. 100 or more is for outdoors.
Bass guitar needs lots more due to poor sensitivity of the ear at bass frequencies. Indoor shows need a minimum of 100 watts and outdoors up to 1000-1500. Buy for what you’re doing now, not where you hope to play.
The volume at your ears should be safely limited though. A dB meter is cheaper than hearing aids. It depends who you ask, but 85dB for 7 hours and 100dB for 15 minutes was the last exposure guideline that I read. The organic recommendation is that if you can feel it in your ears, step away from the speaker or (horrors) turn it down.
Quality
All wine has a glass bottle and liquid with alcohol in it. The difference in quality of the wine and cost reflects the enjoyment of the scent of the cork and the fine taste, compared to the rotgut that looks identical. It’s the last 10% that makes all the difference.
Amps are the same. All amps make sound. Some amps have good tone. Only a few make sweet music. My comparison is to the mechanical amplifier of a well made acoustic guitar. With electrics, you still have strings and fret board in your hands, but the sound box is now an electronic amplifier. It should still sound as good. But it’s difficult to drive high performance off the showroom floor. Factories have to make money, so balancing cost with performance is a given. You aren’t limited by the price point features of the showroom. You can reduce distortion and noise and improve articulation with high end tubes, capacitors and ICs.
There are all kinds of tube recommendations out there, but since this is my post, you get to hear what works for my ear. The few I have are JJ gold pin ECC83 for reducing noise on the input. Better yet, Telefunken or Amperex Bugle boy 12AX7. Yes, I know they are in the $60-100 range, but once you hear them play sweetly through a complex chord, you’ll forget how much they cost. You’ll just be looking at your amp saying wow. They are too smooth for some pickers, though. That’s all I have for tube recommendations. But remember, whatever tubes you do use, don’t go cheap. The tubes are the only amplifying component in the amp. The rest of the parts are just to make the tubes work. The quality of the tubes equals the quality of the sound. A cold brittle piece of crap can become a warm tonemeister with improved tubes. Headaches from an hour of playing become late for work rushes cause you didn’t want to quit playing.
Better capacitors improve sonic transparency. Poly caps or silver mica sound better than ceramics. Low capacitance electrolytics are improved by replacing with poly caps where they can fit.
Solid state amps are not as highly regarded for quality of sound. That’s too bad because there are many decent sounding discrete transistor and FET amps.The Roland JC120, Acoustic, Laney, Hughes and Kettner amps have fine sounding models. They are not very suited to modification, however, but don’t really need it.
The circuits you can improve are the IC opamps. While ICs are commonly used by many manufacturers, the technology is constantly improving and you can update ICs with more modern ones for improved performance. Many have the same footprint and pinout for easy interchangeability, like preamp tubes.
The limiting factor is speed of response, called slew rate. The early chips like the 1458 and 4558 ICs had a slew rate of 5 volts/usec. The CMOS TL072 or 74 can do 16 volts/usec. Your Hot Rod has one of these in the reverb circuit.
Improving slew rate increases articulation and clarity. It doesn’t change gain or tone.
I replace those older chips with a drop in replacement from Texas Instruments, the TLE2072CP. Compared with the older 072, they have half the distortion, half the noise and twice the slew rate at 32 volts/usec. For comparison, a 12AX7’s slew rate is 1000 v/usec.
Other chips are available from Burr Brown also have similar performances. They cost @$3-4 each. An amp may have 2 – 10 op amps to upgrade. Use sockets for flexibility.
I leave the 4558s in distortion circuits to preserve their edge. CMOS are too smooth. Chorus ICs are to be left alone too.
The improvements are very noticeable, even in blind tests where the musician didn’t know the amp was modified. They just knew the amp sounded better and said so.
Even modeling amps and guitar preamps use a few op amps that can benefit from upgrades. Most of these are surface mount and a little trickier to change.
Many people have developed circuit modifications to alter the sound of amps for the better. If you learn to read schematics a bit, you can pick and choose which may improve your tone to suit your needs.

I hope this demystifies amps a bit for you from a technician’s perspective.

To sum up, your Hot Rod is too big and too high gain for practice and a 600 can definitely be improved over stock to help develop your ear to recognize good sound.
Modeling amps are a good way to evaluate a lot of different sounds and keep your practice sessions interesting.


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:37 pm
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Hi Tim,

Thank you for your extremely interesting and extensive post.

You have explained many aspect which confirmed what I thought to be the case, but neither have the knowledge or vocabulary to explain. As I said in another thread, I was ripped to sheds (on another forum) for suggesting a low wattage amp was better for home use.

I couldn't argue why but, my experience confirmed what I had read elsewhere - even if this was contrary to the combined wisdom of the resident forum gurus.

It is nice when you hear you aren't completely mad. ☺

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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:33 pm
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John Sims wrote:
As I said in another thread, I was ripped to sheds (on another forum) for suggesting a low wattage amp was better for home use.


Pay those hearing-impaired neanderthals no mind.

When I want that "tortured-to-the-brink-of-catastrophic-component-failure" sound from an amp, I'll plug in my Vibro Champ and dime it. Despite assertions to the contrary, 5½ watts goes a long way in a music room.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:29 pm
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I'm an old tinkerer now, and my approach is limited to electrons, nuts and bolts, not flavors, voodoo, and pink smoke.
But I was also a young man once, in another lifetime.
I strode a powerful machine and felt it was I who was powerful.
Strapping on a Strat and cranking up 100 watts for some sonic flagellation gives that same feeling of power and command as well.
It's not really a rational behaviour, but it's one of the few places where youth can get that feeling of power in a society such as ours.
But power has a price. We all pay the price, sooner or later. I paid with broken bones. Broken ears?? Ehh, Could be worse. But we get past it and take a more rational approach to life. Suddenly five watts is enough, when we think about it.
That's when the power IS in you and not the appliance.


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:19 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
I'm an old tinkerer now, and my approach is limited to electrons, nuts and bolts, not flavors, voodoo, and pink smoke.
But I was also a young man once, in another lifetime.
I strode a powerful machine and felt it was I who was powerful.
Strapping on a Strat and cranking up 100 watts for some sonic flagellation gives that same feeling of power and command as well.
It's not really a rational behaviour, but it's one of the few places where youth can get that feeling of power in a society such as ours.
But power has a price. We all pay the price, sooner or later. I paid with broken bones. Broken ears?? Ehh, Could be worse. But we get past it and take a more rational approach to life. Suddenly five watts is enough, when we think about it.

That's when the power IS in you and not the appliance.


+1000 on all counts.

But especially that final observation.

There was a time when I felt I simply had to have a 100-watt Twin Reverb or Dual Showman or Super Lead Plexi to make my point. Young and dumb I was, and mesmerized by the hyperbole of the prevailing wisdom of the day. Now, in the twilight years of my musical career, I find I can get the job done just as convincingly with an amp of forty watts, or twenty, or (gasp!) even twelve. And I'd like to think I'm doing my aging ears a favor.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:17 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
John Sims wrote:
As I said in another thread, I was ripped to sheds (on another forum) for suggesting a low wattage amp was better for home use.


Pay those hearing-impaired neanderthals no mind.

When I want that "tortured-to-the-brink-of-catastrophic-component-failure" sound from an amp, I'll plug in my Vibro Champ and dime it. Despite assertions to the contrary, 5½ watts goes a long way in a music room.

Arjay


My Blackheart is 15 watts with both power tubes on or 7 if I switch 1 off. I almost always run just 1. 1 tube hot and saturated sounds better than 2 turned down. 7 watts is plenty for small rooms and with just a flip of a switch it is back to 15 and ready to gig.


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Post subject: Re: Demystify amps for me please, also a question.
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:02 am
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John Sims wrote:
Hi Tim,

Thank you for your extremely interesting and extensive post....


And, on the strength of it I am now £100 poorer having decided to revalve two of my 5W amps. Hopefully it will be an investment, at least that is what I will be telling my dearly beloved.

The amps receiving attention are the Bugera V5, which I feel is a bit sterile and my 5F2a clone which seems to create pot noises from my guitar volume controls, when none is apparent on the other amps and faint frying sounds when the guitar is on anything but 10.

The Bugera gets:-
EL84 JJ Tesla
ECC83-STR/Harma-DR250 Hi Gain - I am hoping this will encourage ad bit more enthusiasm from the Bugera

The 5F2a gets:-
ECC83/5751-JJ Tesla Gold Pin
6V6GTS/ JJ Tesla Cryo - according to Watford valves "The Cryo treatment enhances the overall performance of this valves by giving extend clarity in the high end and upper midrange. This removes the upper end brittleness that is associated with this JJ valve.
In clean playing application the JJ 6V6GTS has more clear high end with and tighter crisper midband. The bass response is also deeper, tighter and more controlled.
In overdriven mode the Cryo JJ 6V6GTS has a tighter bass and more even response
with more note clarity. The Cryo treatment enhances the 6V6GTS valves overload characteristic which results in a fatter and tighter sound with a smoother more sustaining overdrive when the valve is pushed into distortion. This feature is not available in the standard untreated JJ 6V6GTS.
The Cryo JJ 6V6GTS also gives the overdriven sound a larger more detailed soundstage"

Well if all that is true?

The Cryo treated valve only came as a matched pair so I'll be able to treat my modified Champion 600 to a new valve as well :-)

If the Harma Hi Gain doesn't excite the Bugera it will find its way into one of the Fenders.

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