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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:44 am
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You have a Mustang IV amp and cannot find the sound that you are looking for?? I to played in a cover band and that amp could conjure up any sound for such a wide variety of music better than any tube amp with pedals in my experience/ opinion.

As far as the Hot Rod amps having reliability issues, this is way over stated. Every amp line including the high end ones have a run of amps with reliability issues.. that can easily be seen on any forum including this one. The Hot Rod Deluxe 3 & Deville 212 with their Celestion speakers are fantastic sounding amps especially if you swap out 2 of the 3 preamp tubes for lower gain values in my opinion.

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:54 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
The HRDlx III seems to be very reliable from all of the reviews so far, and check this forum for the posted problems with the III lately.....next to nada. :wink:

It happens to just about every manufacturer, most problems get straightened out eventually. I am not convinced that even in Leo's era that there weren't production problems. I would even bet that, percentage wise, there isn't that much difference in the amount of problems. I wonder what forums would have been like in the 50s and 60s (romantic, selective memories aside). :?:


Great grist for a spirited debate, I'm certain.

What I do know is this......

"Back in the day", we'd buy a brand-new Fender amp in the afternoon and take it straight to a gig that evening.

No tube rolling, no bias massaging, no speaker swaps, no nothing.

They sounded like a million bucks.

And they played that way (mostly) for the next ten or twelve years without need for servicing or repairs.

They cost a lot of money (relatively speaking) but they were worth every penny.

Arjay


+1 on top of that every Fender amp I had only had a one year warranty that I never used and I go back to using Fender amps since 1966.

Shimmy, all electronic devices before the transistor radio ran on tubes. TV's, radios, guitar amps, car radios too! I used tube testers at the drug store as a kid. There wasn't a line of people standing there to use them. Our drugstore even had a selection of vacuum tubes behind the counter. It was haw things worked. We had a TV repairman who lived across the street. Stuff was better because it wasn't landfill in a few years. There was pride in goods that were made here. Just a different time. Just remember, tubes were robust, they were used in military applications, didn't really cost a fortune either. I've had some last for decades.

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:02 am
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musicmatty, as far as reliability issues and the HRD series goes, it hasn't been "overstated" until the III series came out, that's all that was stated. That's why there is a III series. I owned one and it spent more time in the shop than it did on a stage or at home. Here's the hint, just look at the seventeen spade connectors just from the switches to the board, then look at the ribbon connectors and the way the tube pin sockets connect to the boards. There are photos on websites of all this stuff, you don't have to look far. Now find photos of any vintage amp. You'll see the difference immediately.

The HRDlx had issues with bad solder joints on the tube sockets, switching channels on its own, cheap fragile input jacks, a 5 watt power resistor that would overheat and cause problems and sometimes burn the traces on the board. The boards were cheap, thin, single sided with light traces and no plated through holes that would flex with heating and cooling and cause solder fractures. Most of this stuff happened to me after only three months of gigging two or three times a week. I had filter caps leaking and one with a meltdown in those same three months.
The stock Eminence speaker was garbage. The volume control would go from zero to full tilt by the time you hit three on the volume dial.
Funny thing is, some people had them and never had an issue, some people had nothing but issues. Mine failed on me three times on stage. Seems like once you've had one problem, it cascades into many. On the plus side, after years of bitching, Fender finally did something about it. There's nothing wrong with PCB's if they are high quality thick double sided boards with plated through holes.

Do a search on issues with other new Fender amps regarding, noise, hiss, reverb feedback and people modding brand new amps by changing components, tubes and speakers. This was never the norm way back and I've been playing guitar for over 45 years. Doesn't make me a great player, just an experienced one.

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:24 am
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63supro ..I fully agree with what you have stated however, that was from a series of amps long long ago. I guess I should have commented about that but certainly not in the last decade for the most part. . I've had my Deville new since 2002 and it has only been shopped twice in all these years and it has been a real workhorse. The hot rod Series amps of the 90s had lots of issues but that shouldn't be in the conversation of this year of 2015 I would think.

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:58 am
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musicmatty wrote:
63supro ..I fully agree with what you have stated however, that was from a series of amps long long ago. I guess I should have commented about that but certainly not in the last decade for the most part. . I've had my Deville new since 2002 and it has only been shopped twice in all these years and it has been a real workhorse. The hot rod Series amps of the 90s had lots of issues but that shouldn't be in the conversation of this year of 2015 I would think.


It wasn't that long ago. The III series came out in 2010 or so. Mine was a 2008 not from the 90's and they sold thousands upon thousands of them. The Deville's didn't seem to have nearly as many issues as the HRD Deluxe. The Blues Deluxe didn't either. It was when Fender in it's infinite wisdom felt the need to "Hot Rod" the amp is when the problems seemed to happen. They always feel the need to either "Hot Rod" or "Customize" something with a proven track record that this stuff happens. For me the plus side is with the inspiration and help from members here like Arjay, Snowy, stratele and many others and the people at thefenderforum.com and 18watt.com I've learned enough to build my own amps and effects. I just built a Marshall 18 watt clone for a third the cost of a Marshall 1974x and a buddy of mine who owns the real deal like mine a little better.

The point is, people looking for the "Classic Fender Sound and Reliability" won't find it in the HRD series. You need to go Tweed, Blackface and Silverface for that sound. I'm not saying the new stuff sounds bad by any means, but it's not that "Classic" Fender sound or Fender "Clean" and anything sporting EL84's seriously is a serious departure from all things Fender. Victoria makes the best Fender amps at this time. There are many, many choices around.

As far as you amp being shopped twice, my 76 Twin went over 30 years without being shopped. I had it retubed once and it was gigged hard through 1976 to 2009. My Bandmaster, 66 Vibrolux reverb, SF Deluxe reverb, Sunn Scepter and even my 74 Champ were never shopped. The shortcuts are still being taken and just do a search and see the problems the shortcuts creating. If I can build a quiet reliable amp, so can Fender.

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:45 am
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LOL. This has really gone deep into tube history.
I am someone who in my youth started my career as a "radio man" in the oilfield. Everything we had was tubes with a few transistors. I am talking high power transmitters where you have 2000 volt power supplies and caps the size of tennis balls. The kind you had to short out before you could even begin to work on them.
Tubes in my opinion still provides the best audio sound, and RF transmitting power. It is linear, and can be understood with a little electronic circuit knowledge and mathematical understanding. I saw the transitions from tubes to transistors and then the IC circuits. But transistors and IC's in industrial equipment is just like tube amps vs solid state amps. There is a constant pursuit to make them emulate tube circuitry. And just like in the amp world, they are still trying to perfect it.
With that said, I can also say that production tube amps have not gotten worse. What we see today that we didn't in the past when they were all pretty much hand wired, is the problems with trying to mass produce them with automated processes.
I have a 70's twin reverb, and a 6505 that I think is from the 90's. I open them up and can see how much of it was probably hand wired and what was automated. The biggest problem with mass production is the lack of inspection of the finished product and individual components. Even though I could build an amp easily, after 30 years I just have no desire to do so. But what I see mostly is a problem with soldering in automated processes. Robots don't always recognize a cold solder joint, or a loose tube socket. I bet 90% of repairs are for these two issues.
The Super Sonic I just got is impeccable when it comes to assembly. It appears most of it was automated assembly but they must have worked out the kinks because it is impressive. Where Fender cut corners was mostly lower priced tubes and speakers. All manufacturers are also trying to hit a price point in the market as well. I think they are doing a pretty good job overall. Yes there will be some issues at times, but the product you get for the money is directly connected to how much they can automate the process and buy components in bulk.
Home building is a craft and hobby that can produce great results. But, the time, effort, component costs all put together make it expensive. If you are a hobbyist and love doing it, then it can be rewarding, but the rest of us aren't going to do this so we buy production models.
So, in the realm of the average Joe, a thousand dollar or less amp should have certain expectations. My Fenders, Peaveys and Marshall amps all meet my expectations. What I bought in the Super Sonic was the versatility that Fender spent the time and money to create in this amp. I am happy with it and really not sure that without their R&D that I would have ever built one with the features and results I bought in this amp.
So, it's all about who you are, what you like and want, and where you can get it. I admire those who take the time and make the effort to build boutique amps at home. It is a big job and takes real commitment. But, most of us just don't have the knowledge, time or in my case with the knowledge, the desire to do so.
So to the guy who stared this thread. Buy what sounds best to you and gives you that rush when you play it. After all, that is what my amps give to me. A different experience with each. Amps are like a living thing in my world and each have their own personalities.
It's raining here at my office today so excuse the long winded post. Too much time on my hands today. LOL.


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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:13 am
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Retroverbial wrote:

...They cost a lot of money (relatively speaking) but they were worth every penny.

Arjay


There is a reason people pay a premium for hand wired amps.

The issue with so many products these days is, because they produce so many, there is more opportunity to save money (or maximise profit) by reducing the specification to the point where it just works.

My view, as far as tube amps are concerned is, they have done little in 50+ years to improve them. They have made them more complicated but the complications only give more scope for the bean counter to reduce the specification of the components employed.

So simple is best. I was going to suggest there is no advantage in buying new over old but, obviously, things deteriorate over time so this may not be the best approach.

However, considering the core technology has changed little in 50 years of valve amp manufacture, the best tube amp is very likely to be identical to one produced 50 years ago but employing new components which have been improved for performance sake not cost... This would suggest a replica classic or well built kit as being the best solution.

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:59 am
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John Sims wrote:
This would suggest a replica classic or well built kit as being the best solution.


......Or a meticulously maintained original.

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:27 am
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What I find is the real challenge today is the lack of quality tubes. What is available today is good but not what American built tubes used to be. I could go two or three years on my tubes back when and now they have to be changed almost every year. I always bias each tube change whether they are matched tubes or not. If I do so, I get longer and better performance from them.
I could kick myself but I had a tube tester for years. It saved many tubes for me that appeared bad, but instead was a resistor or something that had gone out of specs and not the tube. It crapped out and I was too lazy to fix it. I regret it now...we live and learn.


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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:50 am
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A tube tester is pretty much mandatory for an enthusiast of vintage guitar amps and/or hi-fi gear. I have two -- a Hickok and a GI-issue TV-7A/U. They're just about as indispensable as a Variac.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:33 am
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When you combine RoHS solder with wave soldering and very little human inspection, all kind of problems surface. Then add some marginal quality tubes and there you go. Most of the noise related issues seem to be tube related. So much for Groove Tubes. :oops:

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:18 am
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63supro wrote:
When you combine RoHS solder with wave soldering and very little human inspection, all kind of problems surface. Then add some marginal quality tubes and there you go. Most of the noise related issues seem to be tube related. So much for Groove Tubes. :oops:


To this "stew", add a dash of ribbon cables and bayonet/lug connectors then stir......a perfect recipe that bodes nothing but reliability issues and owner aggravation.

:x

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:53 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
63supro wrote:
When you combine RoHS solder with wave soldering and very little human inspection, all kind of problems surface. Then add some marginal quality tubes and there you go. Most of the noise related issues seem to be tube related. So much for Groove Tubes. :oops:


To this "stew", add a dash of ribbon cables and bayonet/lug connectors then stir......a perfect recipe that bodes nothing but reliability issues and owner aggravation.

Oh yeah Arjay, that shortcut garbage burns me up. Somebody posted a photo of the inside of one of the hotrod amps power sections and I counted something like seventeen spade connectors just from the the tranny and switches to the board. Then like you said, ribbon connectors. A solid state amp, you can kind of see that. It's like same kind of computer anyway, bot a tube amp with all kinds of heating and cooling cycles? Must be all suits and no field engineers designing these things.

:x

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:09 am
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That was my picture, of my 16+ year old HRDlx. Working great, zero problems with ribbon cables, zero problems with spade connectors, ran the original tubes for well over 10 years. This amp has been well used, and served well as a test bed for multiple tube swaps, resistor swaps, capacitors swaps, and I've had it apart and back together numerous times. I replaced the original filter caps after about 10 years due to leakage, and recently replaced the original speaker with a Swamp Thang. It's as quiet as any tube amp ever made, and sounds sweet.

It is still my favorite amp. 8)

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Post subject: Re: Need a Tube Amp!
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:25 am
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You know what they say......

If you lock one hundred chimpanzees in a room with one hundred typewriters for one hundred days, sooner or later one of them will type a verbatim copy of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

:wink:

Arjay

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