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Post subject: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:49 am
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Hi, I recently purchased a 2000 HRD, and everything is stock, except the tubes.
It sounds alright, but I was wondering if I need to might want to change the tubes which are GT power tubes and Egnater Ruby 12x7's in V1-3.
The tone is clean, but it seems a little "flat" sounding, even with presence and treble turned up, at least to me.
What do you guys suggest for a more blues/classic rock tube set? If anything? Should I just use a pedal instead? I am new to pedals and tube amps, I was previously using modeled amps and effects, so assume I am a dunce. Mayme replace the speaker?
Chris


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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:59 am
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New tubes is a good bet to liven the thing up a bit. I use JJ tubes from http://www.eurotubes.com/ Tell them the type of sound you want, and they will send you the tube set to match. When you change power tubes you need to reset the BIAS, you need a radio shack or other cheap Multimeter. Eurotubes has video's on how to do that. I also use a tube distortion stomp in front of the clean channel for overdrive and never use the overdrive channel for anything.

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:00 pm
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My first inclination is to think the power tubes need a bias adjustment, I'll bet they are way cold, from the factory they are biased cold so.........

Get er biased and it will come alive ! I promise :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:26 pm
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Thanks, I do own a MM from tinkering with digital electronics, and I have seen the videos on biasing. I'm just a little nervous with the voltages with tubes. I might try doing it myself, once I get my nerve up. :)
Chris

UPDATE: It's biased at 71mv. I think that's at the low end of factory spec.


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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:05 pm
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OK, so I think I have found part of the issue, and as I said, I'm a bit of a newbie to tube amps although not to playing, but after letting the amp warm up for ten minutes or so, I noticed that the tone was significantly better. Is this a common thing for tube amps? I know they need to warm up to make a sound, but I wasn't aware it would take a little longer to really open up. I remember old tube televisions sets when I was younger, and after a minute or so, everything worked, but longer than that usually meant a trip to the drug store to tube test and buy replacements. Is that what is going on here?
The overdrive is a bit better, but I'm thinking I'll want to get a pedal or two for my distortion. At least after using solid state/digital for so long, I know what I want in terms of effects...
Chris


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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:10 pm
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Should be no problem running 78 or 80 ma and you'll notice the difference right now.
cold power tubes just flat sound anemic so.........

let us know how it goes

Follow all of the safety rules !

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:19 pm
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http://www.eurotubes.com/eurotubes-Hotr ... lts-mA.htm

this will get you where you want to be with your HRD

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:47 pm
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Thanks, I'll definitely check out their site.
Chris


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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:56 pm
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Great amp in my opinion with a few simple modifications and here is what I have done..I swapped out the stock speakers in both my Hot Rod amps for the Jensen C12-K 100 watt speaker... this is the same speaker that is used in the George Benson signature Fender Deluxe. Also, I changed out two of the three preamp tubes for lower gain values (12ay7-12at7) instead of all 3 12ax7 tubes.

The stock speaker is way down on power and is virtually non responsive to the EQ settings. Changing out 2 of the 3 preamp tubes for lower gain values will take the jitters out of the amp as the volume comes up and allow the volume to come up in respectable increments. Also, this will let the power of the phase inverter yield a smoother signal transferring over to the big 6l6 tubes. $100. for the speaker & approx $40. For 2 preamp tubes. I have made these changes to my Blues tweed deluxe reissue and hot rod Deville 212 and both are fantastic sounding.

The sum of any amp to start with is the speakers that are used in it. Fender knows that most people will change out the speakers in most amps (as stated by Shane Nicholas of Fender), as they do with guitar strings/pickups..etc..players have their own preference for these things. Speaker changes along with a few preamp tube changes is a given with most amps as is with guitars with regards to strings and pickups.

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:37 am
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Which tube sockets should have the lower gain tubes? V1,V2, or V3? Sorry, I don't know which tubes control what in the amp...
Chris


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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:41 am
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The first two are the preamp gain stages, I would seriously consider a 5751 in V-1

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:03 am
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If you're looking in from the back of the amp the V1 preamp tube is the furthest to the right closest to the wall then the middle one and then the one on the very left next to the big 6l6 is the V3 (phase inverter)

I went with a 12ay7 in the v1 slot and a 12at7 in the v3 or phase inverter slot. From the very beginning there are two things working against the stock setup of this amp and that is, a speaker that is not very efficient and underpowered.. just to start with. Then you have the very first part of the signal chain being slammed with a 100% distorted tube which is the 12ax7....then add to that the phase inverter with a 100% distorted 12ax7 tube which transfers the signal to the big 6l6 tubes...so essentially the signal input is being slammed into the big power tubes...then into a very under powered speaker that can't take the load ....hence a very frazzled sounding amp as the volume starts to come up.

Fender knows most people change speakers and preamp tubes out of a personal preference just like they do guitar strings and pickups ...so it's certainly not a reflection on the amp itself.

With these few changes you basically will have a classic Bassman amp as the tone stacks in the hot rod
amps closely resemble the Bassman amp..that's my understanding.

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:25 am
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12AY7 in V-1 is taking the gain to around 30% of the original 12AX7
5751 is about 70% of the 12AX7
12AY7 also needs more amp draw than either the 5751 or the original 12AX7 so.......
12AY7 is indeed the tube for a tweed bassman or Deluxe ! not so sure its safe in a HD

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1968 Bandmaster with 2X12 cab C-rex speakers
VHT Special 6 Ultra combo

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:28 am
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PS a 12AT7 in the v-3 phase inverter spot is an excellent recommendation

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Post subject: Re: Help with my HRD tone...
Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:42 am
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Some other types you will occasionally see look much the same, other than the numbers printed on them. These are: the 12AT7, often used in reverb-driver and phase-inverter stages; the 12AY7, original equipment in the first gain stages of many legendary Fender tweed amps of the mid and late fifties; and the 5751, a lower-gain replacement for the 12AX7. All of these are what we call “dual triode” types, because they contain two independent tubes within the same bottle. They are mostly differentiated by their gain factor— the degree with which they increase the signal they are given. The 12AX7 has the most gain of the bunch, and the 12AY7 and 5751 are direct substitutes with less gain, which in many cases means they’ll distort the early stages of the amp less. The 12AT7 also has less gain than the “AX,” but requires a slightly different bias voltage for optimal operation (it can be directly substituted in a pinch).



blues bondsman wrote:
12AY7 in V-1 is taking the gain to around 30% of the original 12AX7
5751 is about 70% of the 12AX7
12AY7 also needs more amp draw than either the 5751 or the original 12AX7 so.......
12AY7 is indeed the tube for a tweed bassman or Deluxe ! not so sure its safe in a HD


It is indeed very safe !

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