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Post subject: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:47 pm
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I recently purchased 2 HR DLX3 amps.
One is burgundy/wheat and one is red/black.
The burgundy one has the standard Celestion speaker, and the red/black
has an Eminence "the Wizard" speaker.

I knew there would be a tonal difference, and there is.
It's very surprising how much actually.
Even though the Eminence is supposed to be an upgrade, I find that I like the tones of the Celestion more, mainly when playing clean, or with moderate distortion.

With the Celestion the tone is brighter and still warmer vs the Eminence.
With my Strat in the neck pup position the tone with the Celestion is very musical and rich. With the Eminence there is still a great tone, but there is less of that bright chime, and over all the tone is darker.

I also wanted to see how much the actual amp made a difference so I swapped the speakers for each amp using a speaker cable coupler.
That way I could try the Celestion with the red/black HR and the Eminence with the
burgundy HR.
There is a slight difference as the burgundy amp is a little brighter.
But the main tonal difference is the speakers.

I then tried each amp with my 2x12 V30 cab. VERY nice.
The burgundy amp sounded a bit better to my ears again when playing clean or light distortion.
Also, the burgundy amp as an earlier break up compared to the red/black one, likely difference is the power tubes and/or bias differences.
I haven't checked the bias's yet, but I plan to.

With my distortion pedals on moderate to high gain the Eminence sounds better.
It's tighter in control and in the low end.
Plus, I can get pinch harmonics very easily with the red/black+ wizard HR.
Same goes with the V30's.
The burgundy w/Celestion is still a great distorted tone but pinch harmonics are noticeably hard to get.

I could be very happy with either amp.
But I think I prefer the burgundy w/Celestion speaker for the awesome clean tones, and the feel note attack articulates a bit better with the Celestion.
For high gain/distortion goodness I can use my V30's and plug them into the HR.

Next test is to swap in different pre tubes. :)

Or, I may abandon this amp and get a '65 DLX Reverb RI.
Decisions, decisions....


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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:47 pm
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FYI, the two HRDlx's are identical inside, only the covering and speakers are different. The differences in sound between the two amps could be the tubes and possibly the bais setting, though likely the former. Have you checked the tubes as far as a different lineup in each amp? I realize that they are likely GTs, but there are varieties.

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:08 pm
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For me, there are two kinds of HRD3's. One's with a Cannabis Rex 12" speaker and those without. 8)

Seriously, changing the speakers in these beasts is a great way to "personalize" the sound. I'll leave tube tweaks out of it and stay on topic. Although, I like the reverb these amps have and getting V3 right was an important thing for me. I found a more "organic" tone than the stock tube offered. Playing with any reverb will affect overall tone, IMO and some tubes do reverb better than others.

I have this model, stock with a C Rex.

Image

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:37 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
FYI, the two HRDlx's are identical inside, only the covering and speakers are different. The differences in sound between the two amps could be the tubes and possibly the bais setting, though likely the former. Have you checked the tubes as far as a different lineup in each amp? I realize that they are likely GTs, but there are varieties.


I agree. That's what I trying to explain in the first post.
As the amps are the same series, type 3, the only real variable should be the tubes and bias. There is a possibility that some of non circuit board parts may be different, but seeing that these are assembly line amps that's not likely.

The tubes in both amps are GT. However, GT rates the power tubes according to range.
Given a matched pair if they are in a different range the bias would need to be adjusted accordingly. But I've seen enough mass produced tube amps to know that bias isn't always adjusted correctly. I've seen bias that is either too hot or too cold according to spec's.
Plus, pre tubes have variance as well, and that to will affect tone.
Both amps sound good, and the speaker makes a big difference here.

Given that I played each amp with the same speakers and there is a tonal difference, then something is different.
I'll be checking bias next, and I've got a bunch of pre tubes and some power tubes that I'm going to swap around.
I've got a great pair of SED Winged C's that I want to try in the HR's.
Right now I've got that pair in the Egnater Vengeance and those tubes sound great.

For pre's I've got some Jan Phillips 5751's, the variants that are similar gain to 12ax7's, which is an uncommon 5751 as most variaties are lower gain compared to 12ax7's.
These are great sounding tubes for clean channels.
I'll also try some Tung Sol 12ax7's and JJ's ECC83S's.
My favorite phase inverter tube is the Sovtek LPS, but they can be problematic in combo's due to the tendency towards being microphonic, but the pairs I have are pretty quiet so I'll see if they work.

I also have a pair of Fender speakers that are 80's vintage that came from a
solid state Pro185. I tried one of those speakers with the HR's and they are pretty nice too. They sound somewhere in between the stock Celestions and the Eminence
Wizard.

After playing with the amps some more I'm not leaning towards keep the red/black with the Wizard speaker. With high gain the Wizard is tighter and punchier.

BTW, both amps have a rattle/buzz that seems to be coming from the phase inverter tube area. It could be tube rattle in both.
I've been through both amps and tightened everything I could.
Tube swap may reveal where the buzz is coming from.

Anyone else have this buzz from that area?
If so, did you find the cause?


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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:45 pm
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modwiz wrote:
For me, there are two kinds of HRD3's. One's with a Cannabis Rex 12" speaker and those without. 8)

Seriously, changing the speakers in these beasts is a great way to "personalize" the sound. I'll leave tube tweaks out of it and stay on topic. Although, I like the reverb these amps have and getting V3 right was an important thing for me. I found a more "organic" tone than the stock tube offered. Playing with any reverb will affect overall tone, IMO and some tubes do reverb better than others.

I have this model, stock with a C Rex.

Image



That's nice! :) Great color combo.

From the reviews I've read on various on line retailers, the Crex outsells the Wizard by a good bit. Both speakers get great reviews.
It comes down to personal preference.
I really like the stock Celestion for clean tones. It sounds better than the wizard and the V30's. But for high gain the V30's are awesome.

The reverb driver tube is important I agree.
The phase inverter is also an important tube, yet it often gets over looked.
I prefer an unbalanced PI myself. I like what it does to the harmonic content when the PI is unbalanced.


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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:01 pm
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I think that you might like a 5751 in V1, and a 12AT7 in the PI (that's what I use), this is a very popular combination. Also, the reverb is driven and recovered by an op-amp, no reverb tubes in this amp.

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:57 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
I think that you might like a 5751 in V1, and a 12AT7 in the PI (that's what I use), this is a very popular combination. Also, the reverb is driven and recovered by an op-amp, no reverb tubes in this amp.


:oops: I need a head smack smiley.

The Jan Phillips 12AT7 in V3 did seem to stabilize the reverb, via overall tone and smoothness. Does the PI affect tone? It would seem to.

I do have a JJ 5751 in V1. I like it much better than any 12ax7 I tried.

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:22 am
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:lol:

The PI does have an affect on the breakup of the amp, an AT in the PI giving a cleaner/smoother tone, so I can believe that there is a perceivable difference in the sound of the reverb with different tubes. The same could be said for adding a 5751 in the signal path. V1 and V2 are before the reverb circuit, and V3 (PI) is after the reverb. I usually don't turn my reverb up past 2.5 or so, I like a more subtle reverb sound.

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:54 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
I think that you might like a 5751 in V1, and a 12AT7 in the PI (that's what I use), this is a very popular combination. Also, the reverb is driven and recovered by an op-amp, no reverb tubes in this amp.


Good to know.
There are only 3 pre tubes.
1 for PI, which leaves 2 for the drive channels.

The reverb sounds great on this amp even if it's not tube driven.
And I kind of prefer solid state rectifiers. The feel is a faster attack, less "sag".
I had a Bugera TriRec head for a while and that amp had selectable rectifier, tube, SS, or both. That's a cool feature.

I've got a pair of Jan Phillips 5751, love the tone of that tube in almost every amp I've it in.
Never tried an AT7 in PI. I'll try it.


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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:26 pm
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Half of V2 is added when switching on the drive channel, the other half is always in the circuit for all channels. I kept a GT 12AX7-C in V2, the 5751 in V1 and 12AT7 in V3 tamed it enough that if I used a lower gain tube in V2 it tamed the drive channel too much (for my taste).

Yes, definitely try some different tube combinations. The results are sometimes quite surprising.

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:27 pm
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Tone chasing and tube rolling. :)

I've accumulated a variety of pre tubes and a few flavors of power tubes.
Just this past year I've bought and sold about 14 amps trying to find THE one amp to do all things.
It's a sickness. :mrgreen:
Of all the tube amps I bought I kept the Egnater Vengeance. It comes closest to being the best all around with great cleans and aggressive high gain.
But I NEEDED a clean Fender.

The best power tubes I have are SED Winged C 6L6's.
Man they sound great in every amp I tried them in.
Currently they are in the Vengeance, but I'll be getting a pair for the HR.
Looking forward to putting them in the HR.

So I did some bias testing and adjusting on both HR's, and tried some different pre's.
I discovered that the GT ECC83s are JJ's, and the 12ax7's are Sovtek 7025.
I compared the GT's to the pre's I have and they matched those 2.

The HR with the Celestion came stock with 2 - 12ax7's and 1 ECC83s.
HR with Eminence all 3 are ECC83s.
Bias on the Celestion amp was 65mV, and the Eminence was 71mV.
Right in the ball park to keep things clean. 70mV is recommended to keep higher clean headroom, and 90mV for earlier break up. I hope I've got the right numbers as this was recommended for the HR DLX2 and earlier.
I want the clean headroom so I put both to 70mV. I didn't measure plate voltage, just used the recommended setting.

I tried bias at 50mV and it wasn't bad at all, nice and clean, but it lacked the warmth it has with higher bias.
Also swapped in a pair of Ruby 6L6's and they were pretty nice, very similar to the OEM GT's, even the bias was only about 1-2mV different between the 2 pairs.
I'm not a fan of Ruby tubes, but they were nice in the HR.
The Ruby's came stock in the Egnater.
I've got a pair of Sovtek 5881's that I'll try next
Another pair of Winged C's is also on it's way. :)

I decided to put in the same type pre's in both HR's to keep that variable closer.
Both now have Sovtek 7025/GT 12ax7 in V1 and V2 and the GT/JJ ECC83s for the PI.
I'll be trying the Jan Phillips 5751's soon. They have "RCA" stamped on them and
"5751 USA".

While playing one of the GT's went bad. I started getting a nasty crackle on heavier strokes on the low end. It sounded like a bad speaker. After swapping the OEM pre's for my own set all is not well.

I'm really impressed with the tones and feel from the HR DLX.
I've got to go get some play time on a 65 DRRI to hear what I may or may not be missing. I found a near mint DRRI on craigslist and the guy may want to trade for my Egnater Vengeance head.


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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:51 pm
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Rverb wrote:
Just this past year I've bought and sold about 14 amps trying to find THE one amp to do all things.


A fool's errand.

That's how I ended up with all these......

Image

:lol:

The one amp that will "do it all" has yet to be designed.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:57 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Rverb wrote:
Just this past year I've bought and sold about 14 amps trying to find THE one amp to do all things.


A fool's errand.

That's how I ended up with all these......

Image

:lol:

The one amp that will "do it all" has yet to be designed.

Arjay
It depends on whose playing thru the amp, with my talent or lack of it doesn't make much sense to have 50 amps I sound lousy no matter what! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:17 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Rverb wrote:
Just this past year I've bought and sold about 14 amps trying to find THE one amp to do all things.


A fool's errand.

That's how I ended up with all these......

Image

:lol:

The one amp that will "do it all" has yet to be designed.

Arjay


That is quite the collection! And a good amount of photoshop too. :)
Is there really that much tonal variation in Fender amps that you need that many different types, or do you just like collecting them?

Yup, THE amp doesn't exist if you like different tones.
Some players find the tone they like, but from what I've seen those players tend to use a variety of pedals. I was trying to stay away from that, but as I said I've changed my mind. :)

I don't have a lot of pedals, but I do have a good variety of distortion pedals.
Bogner ecstasy red, Wampler triple wreck, Fulltone Fulldrive 2, and
TC Electronic Hall of Fame reverb and Flashback delay, and a cry baby wah.
And I ordered one of the new Egnater pedals the Silversmith, which was due to ship this month but as typical for Egnater they pushed it back to August.
With this nice clean and toneful Hot Rod I've got plenty of great tones.

I will say that the Egnater Vengeance really is an amp that can do a wide variety of tones. For such a high gain amp it's got a beautiful sounding clean channel.
It has it's own voice and it's a great one.
But I think I may sell it now that I've got a great platform and awesome pedals.


Last edited by Rverb on Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: HR DLX3 - Different Speakers
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:35 pm
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Tried some different tubes today and found a great combo.
I put in a pair of Winged C 6l6's, and a Sovtek LPS in V1, Tung Sol 12ax7 in V2, and
Sovtek LPS in PI.
Didn't like it. The Tung's sound great in the Vengeance but sounds too dark in the HR on high gain. The LPS in V1 took too much of the high end sparkle away.

Then I put in Sovtek 7025's in both V1 and V2, and the LPS in PI and it sounds beautiful!
Smooth and very rich harmonic tone. No flubbyness anywhere.
A bit of high end has rolled down, but add in some treble and presence and it sings with the Strat in every switch position.

Still I don't know if the Eminence Wizard is the speaker I like.
The Celestion in the burgundy HR still sounds better to me.
I'd like to keep the HR with the Celestion.
I bought that one from a local guitar center for $720. It was discounted from the higher FSR pricing, but not much.
The black/red w/wizard HR was on clearance for $550 from a GC in Florida.
I'm going to try and get the local GC to discount the Celestion HR down to the same price. If they do it I'll keep that one.

There's just something about that speaker and that amp that I like more.
It has more sparkle on the top end and the sensitivity feels better.
Next I'm going to try that tube set up in the Celestion HR to hear what they do.
I set bias to 70mV in both amps.

I had the bias set to 70mV with the stock GT tubes and when I put the Winged C's in bias shot up to 110mV, so I had to back it down a good bit.
These tubes are like this in every amp I've put them in.


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