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Post subject: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:16 pm
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Looking for help (created an account just for this question)

I thought I was crazy or that it was only my HRDeville, but I played on my boss' HRDeluxe at a show and the exact same thing happened so I'm asking here.

All things being equal (using same channels, same guitar, etc), my HRDeville makes 2 distinct tones depending on the room. It's either full, with lots of range for the gain, eq, presence, etc., or it's very unforgiving and very glassy, with little to no range on the gain (I can crank to 12 and all I get is more feedback), eq (crank everything and not much difference), presence or reverb.

I always get the fuller, more friendly/forgiving tone in the practice space. I want to figure out how I can get the really unforgiving glassy tone. I'd instantly get 10x better if I could practice on that. It's just way too jarring when I only hear it 5 seconds before I play for a bunch of people.

FYI, I know acoustics play a huge role but the glassy/glistening tone is confusing. You'd think that would be consistent even on the fuller tone, but it's only in certain rooms.

Thanks for reading.


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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:30 pm
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You'll find amp tones to be markedly different depending upon how the amp is positioned. As an example, bass frequencies are diminished when placing the amp on a chair or stand. Conversely, bass response is improved when the amp is situated close to a wall or other solid surface. The latter scenario also promotes better speaker projection.

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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:41 pm
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I've heard that from a lot of people, but I've had the amp on a chair 10 feet from a wall, on the floor 10 feet from a wall, and on the floor right against the wall and they'll all have the same unforgiving tone I described above. The rooms were very similar, too.

I've also had multiple positions for the amp and had the same full tone.

Again, I thought I was going crazy until I tried my boss' amp and dealt with the exact same tone.


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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:30 pm
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You heard the different sounds for yourself, two different amps gave the same results depending on the room in which they were located, confirmed by Retroverbial here. What exactly are you asking?

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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:34 pm
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I said "depending on the room," but I want to know if it's more than acoustics (I've had the same tone in small and big rooms, lots of people and no people), and I really want to know why the glassy sound completely disappears and how I might be able to get it in my practice space.


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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:39 pm
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You seem to have already explained it, it's the surrounding acoustics. It is not a problem with the amp (both amps) if that is what you are asking. A change in the barometric pressure can even have an affect on how we perceive tone.

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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:43 pm
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There's probably between 5-10 different variables for the room (size, shape, people, amp placement from wall, raised/tilted vs. flat/on ground), but only 2 distinct tones that happen with the same channel and instrument. I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was the amp's problem. Shouldn't the amount of variables for the room impact how many different sounds my amp would make?


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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:12 pm
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Yes, different rooms will yield different tones. Even different atmospheric conditions will yield different tones, but the difference might not be as apparent.

One thing to check is also to make sure you're standing at the same distance from the amp while practicing and gigging. If you're standing 1 meter (or even less) away from the amp while practicing and 5m away while gigging, you'll notice a severely different sound because the sound from the amp isn't be able to "spread" if you're just a meter away from it (which is usually the case while practicing with a band and usually not the case when gigging).
So on gigs you might be hearing your amp the way other people hear it - well the ballpark of what other people hear - all the time. That might account for the 2 very different sounds. The amp will still sound different from room to room, don't get me wrong, so the sounds you'll hear being in different rooms could gravitate towards A-ish type of sound (if A is the sound you get while standing near the amp), while other rooms will yield slightly different A-ish type of sound. If you find yourself standing further away from the amp in 2 different venues, you'll hear 2 separate B-ish types of sound (both in the ballpark, but different depending on acoustics of the venue).

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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:30 pm
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I'd say my placement from the amp is very consistent (I don't change cables or anything so the length is the same). Band setups are really consistent too.

Sorry to keep shooting down everyone's answers, but it does help because they are things I'd want to keep in mind if I ever talk to someone else.


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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:41 pm
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Well I also use the same cables for practicing and for gigging, but the cables themselves - although they do play a role in the tone - are not what I was referring to. I, for instance, have a 3m cable going from my guitar into my pedals, a 5m cable going from the pedalboard to the amp, a 5m cable going from effects loop output into the pedalboard, another 5m of cable going from the pedalboard into the effects loop input. When I practice with the band, I am usually standing around 0,5m from the amp, even though the cable lengths would enable me to stand 8m from it. On gigs (and of course, it depends on the size of the venue), I stand around 5m from my amp.
Even if I stand 2m further away from the amp while practicing with the band, in the same room, the amp sounds differently. That's what I was talking about :)
You'll also hear yourself differently if your amp faces away from you and, for instance, your other guitarist or bassist's amp faced towards you.

I don't know how you guys are doing it, but we have a different placement of amps for gigs and for band practice (mostly just to utilize the room available). The angle at which different amps are directed towards you - heck even the angle of monitors directed towards you - will always play a huge role in how you hear your amp.

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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:41 pm
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Then there is no solution.

Live with it. Or not.

The choice is yours.

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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:37 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Then there is no solution.

Live with it. Or not.

The choice is yours.

Arjay


Quote:
I want to figure out how I can get the really unforgiving glassy tone.


My main goal is to live with it more.


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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:40 pm
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Neimenljivi wrote:
Well I also use the same cables for practicing and for gigging, but the cables themselves - although they do play a role in the tone - are not what I was referring to. I, for instance, have a 3m cable going from my guitar into my pedals, a 5m cable going from the pedalboard to the amp, a 5m cable going from effects loop output into the pedalboard, another 5m of cable going from the pedalboard into the effects loop input. When I practice with the band, I am usually standing around 0,5m from the amp, even though the cable lengths would enable me to stand 8m from it. On gigs (and of course, it depends on the size of the venue), I stand around 5m from my amp.
Even if I stand 2m further away from the amp while practicing with the band, in the same room, the amp sounds differently. That's what I was talking about :)
You'll also hear yourself differently if your amp faces away from you and, for instance, your other guitarist or bassist's amp faced towards you.

I don't know how you guys are doing it, but we have a different placement of amps for gigs and for band practice (mostly just to utilize the room available). The angle at which different amps are directed towards you - heck even the angle of monitors directed towards you - will always play a huge role in how you hear your amp.



I know what you're getting at, and I appreciate you asking about it. Whatever the tone is, it'll sound the same 0m or 2m away. There may be a slight difference in tone when I'm closer because it's not blending with other instruments, but it'll still sound like the same amp. The "tone A" and "tone B" sound like 2 completely different amps.


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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:06 pm
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No, it won't sound the same. It will actually sound very different. The sound spreads in the direction of the speaker - well the mids and trebble ranges do. Bass range spreads in all directions. When you stand right next to an amp, you don't hear the sound straight from the amp - you hear the sound that bounces from the walls back to you. Even on a chair, the amp isn't positioned at the same height as your ears. Mids and highs won't be as strong as they would be if you stood 2 meters away from the amp where you can hear the full tonal range as the sound emitted by the speakers can fully develop at that point (the exception here are bass frequencies as they spread in all directions, not just in the direction of the speaker). That's also the reason why you move in front of the amp if you want to hear yourself more on a big stage, a single meter can make the difference on a stage between not hearing yourself at all and hearing yourself louder than anything else (obviously the monitors are there so you could hear yourself everywhere on the stage, but we all know the sound engineers aren't as good as they want us to believe and you can't sometimes hear yourself at all from the monitors).
Kinda like.. a flashlight. Put a flashlight on the table and a coffee mug, for instance, right next to it (or something that would represent the height of an amp vs the height of a human) and a mirror directly in front of the flashlight (but obviously, say a meter away from it). The light rays won't cover the coffee mug, it will only be illuminated by the reflection from the mirror. Now if you put the coffee mug directly in front of the flashlight and a meter, or half a meter away from it, the coffee mug will be directly illuminated by the light from the flashlight, not by the light reflected. Same goes for moving the mug in front or beside the flashlight (to represent the stage situation). You'd have to move the mirror a lot further from the flashlight (to represent the walls, only they are much further away in gigging venues than in practice rooms). When the mug is beside the flashlight, it will be illuminated very faintly (because the mirror is further away). Move it in front of the flashlight and it will be fully illuminated (and obviously you have to move it to a distance where the light has already spread enough to fully illuminate the mug).
The same analogy holds true for amps and sound (sound emitted by the speaker in the amp being represented as light emitted by the flashlight). Obviously the numbers and ratios are a bit different, but I hope you get my drift.

That's why, when recording, they also mic the amps straight at the speaker and don't put the mics a meter and a half higher than the amp. Heck even changing the angle of a mic changes the sound. They'll position the mic at a different angle compared to the center of the speaker cone to get different tones, they will move it half a meter away from the speaker to get the natural reverb of the room in the sound itself, etc.

If you've ever recorded and helped mic up the amps, you should have seen just how big of an effect the positioning has. Our ears are nothing more than microphones - they capture the sound.

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Post subject: Re: Room Acoustics = 2 very different tones on HRDeville
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:06 pm
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What everyone is explaining is very true.
This acoustic phenomenon also happens at live venues.
Guitarist set up their tone and volume based on where they are standing relative to the amps/speakers position. It may sound good to the player, but the audience may be getting hit with awful tones that are overly bright and way too loud.
Why? Because they are sitting in a different position than where the player is.

Higher frequencies are more directional and get more directional as the frequency rises.
If an audience is seated closer to the same height/level as the speakers, then they are going to get hit with the higher frequencies. The player is likely standing above the speakers and is adjusting volume and tone that is reflected back to his ears.
It may sound good to the player, but the audience and sound guy may have a different experience.

One of my amps is a 2x12 with a head. It's positioned along a wall. I tend to stand about 10ft from it and adjust for that. But the room is like 20 feet from that wall to the other. If I stand at the other end of the room, which also widens from 10ft to 20ft at that point, the volume and tone are vastly different. It's MUCH louder standing over there, and the frequencies I hear are also different. The farther away from the speakers I get the more I can hear those directional frequencies that are partially absorbed and reflected by the rug on the floor in front of it.
It makes a big difference.

Maybe the room you are in where your amp doesn't sound as glassy has materials that are absorbing those frequencies that give that glassy tone.
Is there carpet or heavy rugs in that room? Cloth furniture?
If you have a rug and there is a hard floor underneath try moving the rug.
Get a longer guitar cable and move around the room and listen for what sounds best then consider what materials or furniture are there and move the amp or other things around to get a better tone.


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