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Post subject: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:34 am
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Hi everybody,

Owner of a fender BRDI bought 3 years ago, I had to replace tubes few weeks ago.

A friend of mine, better than me in electronics and amps, did it for me and replace my old tubes by these ones:

_ Amp tubes: 2 sovtek 6L6 WXT
_ pre-amp tubes: 3 JJ ECC83S

Unfortunately, the sound of my amp now is not at all the one that I loved when I bought it... It sounds less round, more harsh... I m pretty disappointed about my sound now and I m trying to come back to my original tubes. I only use channel 1 and I use overdrive pedal.

I found some schematics of BDRI (early 90's) and the pre amp tube was fender GT-12AX7-A and amp tube, fender GT-6L6GC.

Hopefully, I have my old tubes that are:
_ Amp tubes: 2 GT-6L6-R (labeled with yellow to white background with GT logo on front of the tube and on the back, there is an inscription "5881 WXT SOVTEK made in russia 07 10")
_ pre amp tubes: 3 GT-12AX7-C (with the same kinda yellow label with GT logo).

I read a lot of different things about Groove tubes and JJ. There s a lot of pros and cons for the two brand. All I want is to find back the original sound of my BDRi!

So, for those who have fender BDRI with original tubes, can you tell me what amp and preamp tubes you have on it?

And to your opinion, what would be the perfect set of tubes (amp & pre amp) to get my orginal sound back?

PS: I read a lot of good feedback from Bluesky636 and Shimmilou. Especially for the taming of the amp by using a 12AY7. I'm quite interested in a more controllable volume for the amp but I wonder if the tone would be the same as my original pre amp tubes.


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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:16 am
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I'd be willing to bet your friend didn't bother to check and rebias the power tubes. :idea:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88475

Nothing wrong with the tubes you used. I use JJ tubes in all my amps and the Sovtek tubes are decent also, but power tubes need to be properly biased to sound good.

Read the tube selection section of my BDRI mod thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=80142

Tone is subjective. Some love the sound of a 12AY7, others hate it. Its up to you to decide.

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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:27 am
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He told me that he did the rebias but since we don't have the same sensibility to music (I m from Blues and he's from modern/hard rock), so it might be the issue.

And he told me also that the color of the tone could be easily changed by substitute and try different pre-amp tube in V1.

I'm quite confused right now... Can you make it clear to me?
(i m currently reading your topics, thanks a lot for that!!)


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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:44 am
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You need to find out how he rebised the amp and what the settings are. Many people say they biased an amp but have no clue how to do so or what it even means.

Changing the tone through changing tubes is called "tube rolling". It can be a long and laborious process. Not too mention expensive. There is no reason that you can't get a good sound out of the tubes that were installed if things were done properly.

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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:57 am
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My Blues Deluxe is running these tubes;
V1: Arcturus 12AY7
V2: Philips Miniwatt ECC83
V3: Ei ECC83

V4 and V5: =C= Tubes biased hot!

The amp sounds just perfect with these tubes in it. It sounds very.. Bassman-ish with a 12". Hell, it even sounded better than my JTM-45. (If the JTM had reverb, it would be close between the two.)

I'd buy this amp brand-new again and get the same tubes in it, if i lost it.

That Arcturus 12AY7 is perfection. I compared it with a Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 and the Arcturus is just night-and-day. There's no comparison between those two.


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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:32 pm
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Assuming that the bias is set properly on the output tubes (I know, assumptions), the JJ ECC83S (12AX7) and the GT 12AX7-C preamp tubes will sound very different. The GT 12AX7-C is a Chinese tube, very warm with smooth distortion, more gain than the JJ, whereas the JJ is a bit brighter/clearer with a more edgy distortion and a bit less gain than the GT. Both tubes can sound great depending on your taste.

You can easily replace any of the preamp tubes by simply unplugging one and inserting another, no biasing necessary. If you liked the GTs in the preamp, try putting them back in. Turn off the amp before swapping tubes, and be aware of the pin positions and line up the gap with the tube socket and carefully push the tube into place.

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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:56 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
whereas the JJ is a bit brighter/clearer with a more edgy distortion and a bit less gain than the GT.


Interesting that you would say this because the general consensus on other forums is that the JJ ECC83S is a very dark, dull sounding tube. Of course, I disagree with that assessment. 8)

Perhaps these will help the OP select tubes more to his liking if he's not satisfied with what he currently has:

http://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech_corn ... made_tubes

http://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech_corn ... made-tubes

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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:08 pm
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This looks interesting!

http://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech_corn ... made-tubes

Thanks!

To the OP;
I strongly suggest a 12AY7 followed by two 12AX7's. That's what the tube layout looked like on the Bassmans! And of course, biasing is essential with new power tubes.


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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:35 pm
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Feelyfeels wrote:
To the OP;
I strongly suggest a 12AY7 followed by two 12AX7's. That's what the tube layout looked like on the Bassmans! And of course, biasing is essential with new power tubes.


+1

A 5751 in lieu of the 12AY7 may also yield some pleasing sonic results.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:12 am
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My JAN 5751 went really microphonic a couple of days ago..

Wish it didnt. It's a really nice tube.

Especially in my newest toy. (At lower volumes.) 8)

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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:00 am
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Actually, all I want is to find back the sound that make me buy this amp. I find this video of comparaison between hot rod and bdri:

imo, the bdri is warmer, has deep bottom end. I would say it's sound like a good velvet blues tone.
Here is the link for the blues deluxe reissue schematic: http://support.fender.com/schematics/gu ... _Rev-A.pdf
The pre-amp tubes are 12AX7A (which can be labeled "7025"):
Image

I forget to mention that my "biasing" friend is an electronic/amp maker tech. He told me to try different pre-amp tube. So, I tried these ones yesterday:

It's just a subjective tone review with the data sheet from the link bluesky636 provide(I noted frequency range level from 1 to 10). I took the closest data to pre-amp tubes that I had:
jj-ecc83s: low 6, mid 9, high 8
Image
jj-5751: : low 6, mid 7, high 7
Image
GT-5751-M (ecc83, 12ax7): low 7, mid 8, high 8
I found this description on sweetwater.com: "The GT 5751-M is a lower-gain 12AX7 tube type."

Here is an interesting thread http://www.guitariste.com/forums/amplif ... 50650.html
It's in french but here is the translation of the best part
Q: Why a pre-amp tube X producing great dynamic tone, great harmonics and with another pre-amp tube X, the sound is dull ?
A: pre-amp tubes from the same brand, same type, same production day, same batch can have physical values from 1:2 ratio.
...
Glossary :
12ax7 (US name) = ecc83 (european name)
12ax7wa : military name
7025= 12ax7 low noise, industrial name.
12ax7s, ecc83s= special, generally low noise.
e83cc : tesla name
ecc803, ecc803s : top end tube, low noise tube.
cv4004 = M8137 : box plates
cv492 : special, top end


From now, I suppose that fender test and re-label tubes to have the sound from the comparaison video in all their Bdri. So, it would be a pity to have to buy a new one to get those tubes since I cannot find the closest tubes from the original ones.
I think the closer would be the 7025.
imo, JJ are dull and kinda marshally sound. They are not good enough to me in low.


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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:46 am
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The stock tubes in a Blues Deluxe RI is;

V1 to V3: GT-12AX7-C. Yellow label (when i got mine), triple mica spacers. Chinese.

V4 and V5: 2 GT-6L6-R. (Sovtek 6L6GC.)


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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:34 am
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Feelyfeels.....what's an Arcturus?, NOS??


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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:03 am
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Kimac,

Yes. Arcturus is a old tube manufacturer.
Best 12AY7 i've heard in a long time.

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Post subject: Re: fender BDRI original tubes / replacement tubes ?
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:01 pm
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matcaz wrote:
From now, I suppose that fender test and re-label tubes to have the sound from the comparaison video in all their Bdri. So, it would be a pity to have to buy a new one to get those tubes since I cannot find the closest tubes from the original ones.
I think the closer would be the 7025.


Fender does no such thing. Fender owns Groove Tubes. Grooves Tubes buys their tubes from multiple manufacturers. They could be Chinese, Russian, whatever. You can buy the same tubes that came in your amp from many sellers. Perhaps that is what you should do. In any case, the Hot Rod Deluxe and BDRI are completely different amps with totally different circuit designs. They are not meant to sound even close to each other.

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