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Post subject: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:03 pm
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I have a question that I am sure has been asked many times, but I still can't get a definitive answer, even after rereading older posts:

Basically, my brand new '65 DRRI has a constant hiss in both normal and vibrato channels, which is noticeable enough even when the volume knob is on 1, so as to make it annoying. The his is identical without a guitar plugged in, with my Tele, and with my Les Paul plugged in. It increases in volume with turns of the volume knob, but remains the same hiss/white noise. At anything above 2.5-3 on the volume, it is too loud to concentrate on playing anything clean and/or subtle.

I have done a complete check of all tubes, beginning with V1, and I have found that removing V1 stops the noise in the normal channel, but that's to be expected, as it's the only gain stage for the normal channel!

However, I also found - as I removed one tube at a time, and turned power back on, checking for hiss - that removing V2 brought the hiss to a very low volume that did not increase much when the volume knob increased. But my major discovery came when I removed V4 (the second gain stage for vibrato channel): the hissing/white noise stopped completely.

I replaced the 12AX7s in V2 and V4 with several excellent, new tubes (JJs and EHX), but to no avail: as soon as V4 had any tube in it, the hissing returned exactly as before.

I am assuming there must be something wrong with the V1, V2, and V4 sockets. Am I right to assume this?

BTW, the noise is not affected by any other controls, including reverb, etc., nor is it the speaker, as I tried it with a 12 inch Eminence Swamp Thang and the same hiss came out of it as out of the Jensen. Also, I have plugged it into all the outlets in my house: all have no effect, and the hiss remains.

The amp is under warranty, of course, and Long and McQuade (my local music store conglomerate) are excellent about making their customers happy, so I will take it back tomorrow and see what they say.

However, I would like some ammunition (I don't know why such a violent metaphor came to mind - must be the hours I've just spent troubleshooting what i hoped would be my "Holy Grail" keep-it-forever amp!) for the sales guy or manager who trots out the old, "Tube amps are naturally noisy."

I did read on here or somewhere else, someone state that their Fenders, including 2 DRRIs, are all "quiet as church mice at all volumes". Is this what I should expect, and demand, of an amp that Fender markets as being "heard on many famous recordings from Memphis to Abbey Road"? My DRRI could never be used to record anything, as the hissing noise would ruin everything.

Any advice would be much appreciated.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:48 pm
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Possible bad cathode bypass cap (C16) on the V4 tube socket.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:07 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Possible bad cathode bypass cap (C16) on the V4 tube socket.

Arjay


Is this something one should attempt to fix oneself, or take it in to a tech? Also, is it easy to tell by looking at the cap whether or not it is a bad one?

Thanks for your advice.

Steve


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:20 pm
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smoore99 wrote:
Is this something one should attempt to fix oneself, or take it in to a tech? Also, is it easy to tell by looking at the cap whether or not it is a bad one?

Thanks for your advice.

Steve


If you have to ask, take it to a tech. Do it yourself and you void the warranty. Do it yourself and mess it up and a factory authorized repair shop will charge you double to fix it.

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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:55 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
If you have to ask, take it to a tech. Do it yourself and you void the warranty. Do it yourself and mess it up and a factory authorized repair shop will charge you double to fix it.


+1000

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:23 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
If you have to ask, take it to a tech. Do it yourself and you void the warranty. Do it yourself and mess it up and a factory authorized repair shop will charge you double to fix it.


+1000

Arjay


Actually, if it is just a matter of replacing the carbon comp resistors for each of the preamp plates with metal foil ones (2 for each plate, I think?), I will do this myself. For my guitar parts, I usually order from Stewmac, so do you have any recommendations as to which metal resistors I should buy to replace the crappy carbon ones in the DRRI? And, I am assuming they should be 100k as the current ones are?

Thanks,
Steve


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:15 pm
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smoore99 wrote:
Actually, if it is just a matter of replacing the carbon comp resistors for each of the preamp plates with metal foil ones (2 for each plate, I think?), I will do this myself. For my guitar parts, I usually order from Stewmac, so do you have any recommendations as to which metal resistors I should buy to replace the crappy carbon ones in the DRRI? And, I am assuming they should be 100k as the current ones are?

Thanks,
Steve


Who said anything about replacing preamp tube plate resistors? Have you done any troubleshooting to determine that they are noisy? Do you even know how to troubleshoot a tube amp? Fender hasn't used carbon comp resistors in years and there is only one resistor per plate. And if they were bad (which you have no proof that they are), why would you even ask if they should be 100K "as the current ones are"? By the way, V4 is the reverb recovery and mixer tube.

Before you go ripping your amp apart and voiding the warranty, how about posting a sound clip with the noise you are hearing? All tube amps have a certain amount of hiss. Yours may be perfectly normal. We have no idea without hearing it.

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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:54 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
smoore99 wrote:
Actually, if it is just a matter of replacing the carbon comp resistors for each of the preamp plates with metal foil ones (2 for each plate, I think?), I will do this myself. For my guitar parts, I usually order from Stewmac, so do you have any recommendations as to which metal resistors I should buy to replace the crappy carbon ones in the DRRI? And, I am assuming they should be 100k as the current ones are?

Thanks,
Steve


Who said anything about replacing preamp tube plate resistors? Have you done any troubleshooting to determine that they are noisy? Do you even know how to troubleshoot a tube amp? Fender hasn't used carbon comp resistors in years and there is only one resistor per plate. And if they were bad (which you have no proof that they are), why would you even ask if they should be 100K "as the current ones are"? By the way, V4 is the reverb recovery and mixer tube.

Before you go ripping your amp apart and voiding the warranty, how about posting a sound clip with the noise you are hearing? All tube amps have a certain amount of hiss. Yours may be perfectly normal. We have no idea without hearing it.


As an answer to your first question, I did. As I explained in my original post, I did troubleshoot the tubes, and found the problem - as is usual with this sort of thing, apparently - resides in V1, V2, and V4. I was just asking for some help, not a competition over who knows more - I bow to your superior knowledge, and am thankful you deigned to provide a suggestion for me.

However, I am not about to rip apart my amp; I am going to keep Fender's feet to the fire, and let my local music store do the work of finding me a new DRRI that I am completely satisfied with . I am not in the habit of accepting substandard workmanship, but I can sometimes get ahead of myself in my desire to solve problems that are perhaps above my head!

So, it's now up to Fender: they can send me amp after amp, until I approve of the level of hiss, which - although you say all tube amps have some hiss - is a low enough level that I should not hear it unless I place my ear right against the grill cloth, even with the volume at 10. I think I am in for a long struggle, but I am willing to wait, and Fender should be thankful for a loyal customer who just wants what is promised in the DRRI ads: a quiet, recording-studio-ready amp.

Today, as I was trying different tubes in each socket, and every other troubleshooting method I was advised to try, it occurred to me how easy many of us are on the manufacturers of inferior products. Just the web sites and posts about modding Blues Juniors is enough to make one realize how odd such behaviour is. We don't usually buy a new car, and spend hours and $ troubleshooting issues. We simply take it back for a new one. I plan to use every minute of Fender's 5 year warranty, if need be, to get a perfect DRRI, right out of the box.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:06 pm
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Good luck. No need to waste any more of my time here.

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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:02 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
Good luck. No need to waste any more of my time here.


In the immortal words of Omar Little, "Oh, indeed." Your time is better wasted on those who get some sort of kick out of being insulted. I simply asked for some opinions, and got an earful of self-important "advice," written as if speaking to an idiot. Perhaps you have yet to receive the memo: adults do not like, nor do they deserve, to be treated like children.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:08 am
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smoore99 wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
Good luck. No need to waste any more of my time here.


In the immortal words of Omar Little, "Oh, indeed." Your time is better wasted on those who get some sort of kick out of being insulted. I simply asked for some opinions, and got an earful of self-important "advice," written as if speaking to an idiot. Perhaps you have yet to receive the memo: adults do not like, nor do they deserve, to be treated like children.

You need a nap, kiddo.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:06 am
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evets618 wrote:
smoore99 wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
Good luck. No need to waste any more of my time here.


In the immortal words of Omar Little, "Oh, indeed." Your time is better wasted on those who get some sort of kick out of being insulted. I simply asked for some opinions, and got an earful of self-important "advice," written as if speaking to an idiot. Perhaps you have yet to receive the memo: adults do not like, nor do they deserve, to be treated like children.

You need a nap, kiddo.


Duly noted (and much appreciated!). I do tend to obsess about these things; however, I also dislike the "I know so much, and you know so little, so why bother"-type response, regardless of how well-respected or knowledgable the person is.


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:59 pm
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smoore99 wrote:
Duly noted (and much appreciated!). I do tend to obsess about these things; however, I also dislike the "I know so much, and you know so little, so why bother"-type response, regardless of how well-respected or knowledgable the person is.


You went from pulling a couple of tubes to concluding that the plate resistors were bad. You had no idea what type of resistors Fender uses (carbon film) and to top it off, asked if the replacement resistors should be the same value as the originals. You were asked to provide a sound clip of the noise you are hearing, which you obviously couldn't be bothered doing. You clearly have no clue what you are doing or talking about. The smartest thing you wrote in this thread was that you were returning the amp under warranty. Good luck finding a "perfect" amp.

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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:24 pm
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smoore99 wrote:
Is this something one should attempt to fix oneself, or take it in to a tech? Also, is it easy to tell by looking at the cap whether or not it is a bad one?

Thanks for your advice.

Steve


Steve,

Bluesky is trying to save you from chasing your tail and future headaches. Learned from the school of hard knocks. Anyone can say "change this resistor or that capacitor" with no real rhyme or reason. After all the "quick" fixes don't work, you are much further from the cure. And where are these so-called amp gurus? Off writing about some other "miracle mod."

You have two main issues going against you. 1.) White noise or hiss or hum maybe due to a number of problems. Finding and eliminating them can be a long drawn-out battle. 2.) new re-issue amp printed boards do not take kindly to the many fixes that maybe needed to find and cure this problem.

IMHO, these are NOT good amps to learn "how-to-fix" tube amps. You need very special care not to permanently damage the board, rendering it an $$$ door stop. I can't tell you how many basket cases I've seen where ppl have tried to fix or hot-rod amps with delicate circuit boards. Resulting in a useless boat anchor, that is unfixable --- as aftermarket printed boards are next to impossible to find. Which means that one is reduced to either buying another amp to savage the board or going DIY P2P. At that point, might as well look for a nice used SF DR.

Just my 2¢ worth. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: DRRI Hiss/White Noise
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:46 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
smoore99 wrote:
Duly noted (and much appreciated!). I do tend to obsess about these things; however, I also dislike the "I know so much, and you know so little, so why bother"-type response, regardless of how well-respected or knowledgable the person is.


You went from pulling a couple of tubes to concluding that the plate resistors were bad. You had no idea what type of resistors Fender uses (carbon film) and to top it off, asked if the replacement resistors should be the same value as the originals. You were asked to provide a sound clip of the noise you are hearing, which you obviously couldn't be bothered doing. You clearly have no clue what you are doing or talking about. The smartest thing you wrote in this thread was that you were returning the amp under warranty. Good luck finding a "perfect" amp.


My point made for me. Instead of patiently teaching an obvious novice (see my original post),in the spirit of education and sharing of knowledge, you chose to insult with inane comments and insults. Your modus operandi, apparently. (By the way, I did have luck in returning the amp: it is now hiss-free all the way to 10 on both channels.)


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