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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:28 am
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rhythmism wrote:
Good question Lightnin MN,where is the ball going to drop?

Is it up to the equipment manufacturers to design around the current reissue tubes or the tube manufacturers to bring up the quality of tubes to meet the demands of current equipment?

New Sensor bought the patents for Mullard and Tung-Sol?, in doing so don't they have specific guidelines or construction parameters to meet the patent requirements?


New Sensor can't be violating a Patent if they own the Patent Rights... would they sue themselves??

They can pick and choose which of the methods, techniques and materials they want with no thought of violating a Patent.

Now if they merely bought permission to manufacture under license, that could be a different story, even still, agreements could be reached with the Patent holder if enough consideration was made.

And due to the HazMat involved, it isn't possible to duplicate old tube manufacturing exactly either.

cheers!

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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:34 am
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Lightnin MN wrote:
By natural extension, one must wonder if Amplifier Manufacturers (Fender amongst them) must somehow adapt their design/manufacturing to maintain a given performance with the available Tube Stock?

If not, then it would seem they are forced to produce an inferior product.

Perhaps they simply don't care as people will buy these amps anyway simply because it's all that's out there to satisfy demand.

cheers!



Simple answer, no. For two main reasons. 1.) Tubes built today are constantly changing. The source, the ACTUAL manufacturer. Which often, is diificult to ascertain. Availability of specific tube types and/or manufacturer. 2.) To sell amps, esp re-issued ones, adherence to original design specs is a major selling point. Original specs were made to standards of that time.

Of all the tubes made today, the rectifier remains one of the toughest to manufacturer to original standards. Esp indirect-heated variety. And the cost of direct-heated NOS types (5U4GB and 5Y3GT) remainds fairly competitive. So, there maybe no $$$ incentive for Russian and Chinese tube makers to tool-up to original RCA and GE standards of the 1940-1950's. Many modern 5U4GB or 5Y3GT are just re-labeled mil spec tubes that most closely approximate the original US ones. Almost. Usually, they will do, as long as you don't push the amp too hard (a ridiculous statement, for guitar amp users). :lol: And you are vigilant for early signs of failure.

Pesonally, I'd use an NOS 5U4GB over any modern made 5AR4. Most good amps can handle the extra current needed for the 5U4GB over the 5AR4/GZ34. In fact, many vintage Fender amps that used the 5AR4/GZ34 in the early BF models, switched to the 5U4GB in later SF models. All seemed to use the same PT (BF or SF models). Just my opinion.


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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:39 am
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" And due to the HazMat involved, it isn't possible to duplicate old tube manufacturing exactly either. "


True in US and Europe. Not true in Russia and Red China. Tooling up to make old school vacuum tubes is an expensive proposition. Esp bulding them to original tolerance standards, laid out in the 1930-50's. The story of Eric Barbour and his quest to have Svetlana make 6L6GC, EL34, 6550, and KT-88 to original tolerances is an epic. It only lasted 20 years. But, those tubes were honestly built to original OEM & QA standards. I know of no other modern manufacturer can that claim that.


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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:02 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Simple answer, no. For two main reasons. 1.) Tubes built today are constantly changing. The source, the ACTUAL manufacturer. Which often, is diificult to ascertain. Availability of specific tube types and/or manufacturer. 2.) To sell amps, esp re-issued ones, adherence to original design specs is a major selling point. Original specs were made to standards of that time.

Of all the tubes made today, the rectifier remains one of the toughest to manufacturer to original standards. Esp indirect-heated variety. And the cost of direct-heated NOS types (5U4GB and 5Y3GT) remainds fairly competitive. So, there maybe no $$$ incentive for Russian and Chinese tube makers to tool-up to original RCA and GE standards of the 1940-1950's. Many modern 5U4GB or 5Y3GT are just re-labeled mil spec tubes that most closely approximate the original US ones. Almost. Usually, they will do, as long as you don't push the amp too hard (a ridiculous statement, for guitar amp users). :lol: And you are vigilant for early signs of failure.

Pesonally, I'd use an NOS 5U4GB over any modern made 5AR4. Most good amps can handle the extra current needed for the 5U4GB over the 5AR4/GZ34. In fact, many vintage Fender amps that used the 5AR4/GZ34 in the early BF models, switched to the 5U4GB in later SF models. All seemed to use the same PT (BF or SF models). Just my opinion.


JJ is the only manufacturer to my knowledge to build and sell tubes under their own name. That is why I buy only JJ or NOS tubes. When you buy a JJ tube, you know who built it and where. The 5AR4 in my 5F6A clone has been working great for the past 2 years. I see no reason not to expect it to last even longer (unless I just jinxed it :lol: ).

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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:17 am
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IMO other company who buy some JJ's and sell to their name could test them and sell only the best one ? They may reject some .

JJ"s , I did not say they do that, but if they don't test quality of their tube before sell them JJ's won't be better than other .

A tech , one of my best friend , had many trouble with new JJ's 6L6 since few months. Now he bought TAD, no more return.


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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:10 am
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stratele52 wrote:
IMO other company who buy some JJ's and sell to their name could test them and sell only the best one ? They may reject some .

JJ"s , I did not say they do that, but if they don't test quality of their tube before sell them JJ's won't be better than other .

A tech , one of my best friend , had many trouble with new JJ's 6L6 since few months. Now he bought TAD, no more return.


I buy all my JJs from Eurotubes. They test everything. I've had one JJ 6L6GC fail and one JJ ECC83S become noisy, both from Eurotubes. I currently have four other tubes that have gone noisy including one GT 12AX7 (origin unknown), one NOS JAN GE 5751, and two NOS JAN GE 12AY7s. I'll stick with my JJs from Eurotubes for my "everyday" tubes.

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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:55 am
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Geez,wasn't ready to break out the zoot suits(lawyers)over the patents,just thought they had to adhere to specific guidelines to manufacture a tube with that brand name on it(enlightened).
Kinda side tracked your thread here BMW2002Ti,the new TS 5AR4 still interests me though.I'll probably grab one in the near future just to have in case anything should happen to the Sovtek I have in there now.I don't have any testing equipment but I can make periodic checks with my baising meter making sure it stays within specs.
Some food for thoughts....would the 5V4 be a viable option(lower voltage)?


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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:35 pm
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" Some food for thoughts....would the 5V4 be a viable option(lower voltage)? "

Do not use a 5V4 or 5V4GA in an amp that OEM is a 5AR4. You most likely cook that rectifier in the circuit. It doesn't pass enough current. 5U4GB is a much better choice. You get a drop in B+, more sag, healthy current.

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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:27 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
" Some food for thoughts....would the 5V4 be a viable option(lower voltage)? "

Do not use a 5V4 or 5V4GA in an amp that OEM is a 5AR4. You most likely cook that rectifier in the circuit. It doesn't pass enough current. 5U4GB is a much better choice. You get a drop in B+, more sag, healthy current.

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You will also get a greater current draw on the heater filament which may or may not cause a problem with the power transformer.

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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:32 pm
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Bill,

True about current draw. However, most vintage BF Fender amps that originally had OEM GZ34/5AR4 got switched over to the 5U4GB in the SF era. The amps seemed to maintain the same type of PT.

Not sure about today's amps that use the 5AR4. But, I'd imagine that the reissued BF amps have very similar PT (at least in terms of PIV and current output), as the original BF models they are emulating. Much of the amp's transient response and bass characteristics starts with the PT.


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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:40 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
Bill,

True about current draw. However, most vintage BF Fender amps that originally had OEM GZ34/5AR4 got switched over to the 5U4GB in the SF era. The amps seemed to maintain the same type of PT.

Not sure about today's amps that use the 5AR4. But, I'd imagine that the reissued BF amps have very similar PT (at least in terms of PIV and current output), as the original BF models they are emulating. Much of the amp's transient response and bass characteristics starts with the PT.


I don't disagree about what you say, but there is no indication that this thread is only about BF Fender amps. Someone reading this thread may try this swap in a different amp and be in for a rude shock. Always best to caveat a recommendation that may not be universally applicable.

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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:49 pm
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Bill,

You are correct.

I did post this caveat, of sorts --- buried in a reply.


" Personally, I'd use an NOS 5U4GB over any modern made 5AR4. Most good amps can handle the extra current needed for the 5U4GB over the 5AR4/GZ34. In fact, many vintage Fender amps that used the 5AR4/GZ34 in the early BF models, switched to the 5U4GB in later SF models. All seemed to use the same PT (BF or SF models). Just my opinion. "


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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:46 pm
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I see.

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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:07 am
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bluesky636 wrote:


You will also get a greater current draw on the heater filament which may or may not cause a problem with the power transformer.



I don't understand.

5V4 need 2 amps for heater less than 5U4 wich need 3 amps. And 5AR4 need 1.9 amps . A power transformer which feed 5AR4 can feed 0.1 amp more for 5V4

5V4 look like a 5Y3 for spec , just more drop of voltage .


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Post subject: Re: New issued 5AR4
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:28 am
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stratele52 wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:


You will also get a greater current draw on the heater filament which may or may not cause a problem with the power transformer.



I don't understand.

5V4 need 2 amps for heater less than 5U4 wich need 3 amps. And 5AR4 need 1.9 amps . A power transformer which feed 5AR4 can feed 0.1 amp more for 5V4

5V4 look like a 5Y3 for spec , just more drop of voltage .


The recommendation was to use a 5U4GB which draws 3 amps from the heater supply. I still disagree with that recommendation in non-Fender amps unless one knows the specs of the power transformer being used. 5V4s were NOT recommended as a substitute for a 5AR4.

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