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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:03 am
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Wayne2 wrote:
63supro wrote:
Sorry, but as a business owner, I wouldn't follow that model at all and no, it doesn't make any sense. I will never provide a low price inferior product. It's too much work. Low ball customers are really picky and complain about everything. I have people and some businesses tell me my services are too expensive, I just explain what my costs are to survive and what is required to provide quality work. I'd rather do one, one thousand dollar job than fifty twenty dollar jobs. I will never provide a low price inferior product.


That seems to be the direction a lot of people are moving. Too many people chasing easy dollars, catering to the wealthy and leaving customers with tight budgets out in the cold. In my business it's what all the so-called experts tell you, what you read in the trade journals all the time. "Raise your fees!" "Charge what you're worth!"

It works for a while, I guess, and I do see people doing well with it. However, you have to come to terms with the reality that a larger proportion of the community will be underserved because of it.


Charging what I'm worth has worked for me for over twenty five years. Charging what your worth and gouging people are two different things. I have costs to cover. I have equipment, an office, studio, heat, air conditioning, insurance, taxes, automobile maintenance, utilities etc. I need to cover those costs plus provide a salary for myself and any assistants I may need. I own my home and no longer have huge debt hanging over my head. I work hard for everything I have. I want to make a living. I can't lay myself off when I'm slow and I have to match my own Social Security. I donate a portion of my time, money and services to amputee veterans as well as other charitable organizations. This is my reality. I'm not going to bankruptcy court to provide cheap services to the "under served community" You just can't operate a business that way.

If a business wants to help the larger portion of the community, how about manufacturing things in America and providing jobs with a living wage for Americans so they can actually pay a fair price for quality merchandise? Now, I look for American made products. It's hard, and it costs more, but I think it's worth it. We even buy most of our food from local farmers.

Sorry for the rant. I'm off my soapbox now. :oops:

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:37 am
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:arrow: I like the pawn shop amp series of Fender's. They most definiately serve a purpose and fulfills a niche in the world's music market. I especially loved the little 1 watt Greta, and almost bought one. The Excelsior; Ramparte, and Vaporizer are all far more affordable in the $300-to-$400 price range than the various $1,000 and up re-issues.

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:07 am
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63supro wrote:
Charging what I'm worth has worked for me for over twenty five years. Charging what your worth and gouging people are two different things. I have costs to cover. I have equipment, an office, studio, heat, air conditioning, insurance, taxes, automobile maintenance, utilities etc. I need to cover those costs plus provide a salary for myself and any assistants I may need. I own my home and no longer have huge debt hanging over my head. I work hard for everything I have. I want to make a living. I can't lay myself off when I'm slow and I have to match my own Social Security. I donate a portion of my time, money and services to amputee veterans as well as other charitable organizations. This is my reality. I'm not going to bankruptcy court to provide cheap services to the "under served community" You just can't operate a business that way.

If a business wants to help the larger portion of the community, how about manufacturing things in America and providing jobs with a living wage for Americans so they can actually pay a fair price for quality merchandise? Now, I look for American made products. It's hard, and it costs more, but I think it's worth it. We even buy most of our food from local farmers.

Sorry for the rant. I'm off my soapbox now. :oops:


I think we're on the same page more than you think. The fact that you're even thinking about it shows that you're probably somewhere in the middle ground where you're fair but not elitist. Strangely most musicians, even hobbyists, seem to get it.

I don't know what more I can do to help the American worker. I drive a Pontiac made in Michigan, with union stickers all over the inside of the doorjamb. GM thanked me by zeroing out all my stock and giving money to their executives, employees, and the government. I just passed up a bunch of cheap import guitars that were blowing out around the holidays and bought an American Deluxe Strat for north of a grand. I also picked up a Princeton 112 Plus off Ebay, another MIA amp (but one Saint Leo didn't personally bless and that some might call a toy). Even the Crate amp I bought was MIA. I buy orange drop caps made in New England somewhere. Pedals MIA except the Zoom G3X. I spent half the price of the vaporizer on that and nobody has ever said peep about me not buying American for that. Now I'm thinking of selling it and getting a Vaporizer. I do enough. It looks like fun and it's only $400 freaking dollars.

Trading around a bunch of old amps while slamming all their new products does not help Fender. Fender needs to be a living company where people buy new products and play them. They do offer high end amps for $2000. If those aren't up to snuff, I can see criticizing Fender, but to get after them over things like the Vaporizer is stupid.


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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:33 am
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I have no problem with Fender producing inexpensive amps. I have a problem with Fender producing inexpensive amps that in most likelihood won't really last because they are being made with cheap, poor quality components. Their higher end amps have their share of problems too. I played one of the thousand dollar 5F1 Champs way back where the baffle buzzed like a can of bees, Tweed Deluxe reissues that crackled and made weird noises too. These amps were brand new on the showroom floor. I've played new Princeton reissues with buzzing baffles and Deluxe Reverb Reissues with weird problems. Quality shouldn't be hit and miss in any price range. And for the record, I was an IAM shop steward in a machine shop for eight years before I became self employed because my job moved to North Carolina. Was I bitter? Sure was.
Some of the more reliable inexpensive great sounding amps come from Peavey, Jet City and VHT to name a few. It can be done.

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:13 am
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63supro wrote:
I have no problem with Fender producing inexpensive amps. I have a problem with Fender producing inexpensive amps that in most likelihood won't really last because they are being made with cheap, poor quality components. Their higher end amps have their share of problems too. I played one of the thousand dollar 5F1 Champs way back where the baffle buzzed like a can of bees, Tweed Deluxe reissues that crackled and made weird noises too. These amps were brand new on the showroom floor. I've played new Princeton reissues with buzzing baffles and Deluxe Reverb Reissues with weird problems. Quality shouldn't be hit and miss in any price range. And for the record, I was an IAM shop steward in a machine shop for eight years before I became self employed because my job moved to North Carolina. Was I bitter? Sure was.
Some of the more reliable inexpensive great sounding amps come from Peavey, Jet City and VHT to name a few. It can be done.


I'm getting the weird feeling Fender is about to make a return to their CBS days of producing shoddy,unreliable amps if they are not careful,...especially after reading this response. Could the day come when I make a move to Marshall or Vox to get a reliable amp if Fender continues down such a road of shoddy production like in the old CBS days? Maybe,...but God forbid I go back to Peavey. I could just never get into their sound,...tube or solid state! So far,...my HRD III has proven reliable,...knock on wood! Will I eventually give a Vaporizer a try? Don't know and don't really care!

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:31 am
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I had the opposite experience with my HRDlx. Mine was a total POS that couldn't stay out of the repair shop. My CBS 76 Twin went for over 30 years of gigging and rehearsals with zero problems. The Fender CBS amps had more to do with changing circuits that worked not so much with reliability which is why the Silverface amps never climbed so much in price as their Blackface, Brown and Tweed counterparts did. The solid state stuff was a total failure. The guitars were also pretty hit and miss too especially with all the poly on the necks. I have a 72 Strat and still have it. Pretty nice guitar actually. What's going on now as far as amps go, makes even the CBS era look good. A lot of the guitars a first rate, but so are many other manufacturers.

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:33 am
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linnin wrote:
:arrow: I like the pawn shop amp series of Fender's. They most definiately serve a purpose and fulfills a niche in the world's music market. I especially loved the little 1 watt Greta, and almost bought one. The Excelsior; Ramparte, and Vaporizer are all far more affordable in the $300-to-$400 price range than the various $1,000 and up re-issues.

Whether they're more affordable depends on how long you intend to keep them. These amps are not designed to last nor be serviceable. It can become expensive if you have to toss and buy something different every few years.


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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:45 am
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arth1 wrote:
Whether they're more affordable depends on how long you intend to keep them. These amps are not designed to last nor be serviceable. It can become expensive if you have to toss and buy something different every few years.


+1

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:57 am
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arth1 wrote:
linnin wrote:
:arrow: I like the pawn shop amp series of Fender's. They most definiately serve a purpose and fulfills a niche in the world's music market. I especially loved the little 1 watt Greta, and almost bought one. The Excelsior; Ramparte, and Vaporizer are all far more affordable in the $300-to-$400 price range than the various $1,000 and up re-issues.

Whether they're more affordable depends on how long you intend to keep them. These amps are not designed to last nor be serviceable. It can become expensive if you have to toss and buy something different every few years.



+2 It drives me nuts with my photography business too. My old school film cameras still work great and so does my darkroom.

I replace my digital stuff every few years due to obsolescence, same thing with software upgrades. I hate disposable anything. I like having stuff a long time whether it's an appliance, a car or an amp for that matter. I trusted Fender on past performance and that HRDlx destroyed that trust, especially after reading about other people having the same issues I had. I thought I'd have that amp for twenty plus years. What a joke. I'm starting to believe it's Fenders new business plan. When my Dad bought me that Vibrolux Reverb in 1966, there weren't a ton of choices and options. You had the Champ, Princeton, Deluxe Reverb, Twin etc., not a million modified variations of the same thing. The new regime is no better than the CBS suits that damn near destroyed Fender in the first place. :cry:

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:30 am
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arth1 wrote:
Whether they're more affordable depends on how long you intend to keep them. These amps are not designed to last nor be serviceable. It can become expensive if you have to toss and buy something different every few years.



I do not concur. arth1 commence to noodling! :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:50 am
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63supro wrote:
The new regime is no better than the CBS suits that damn near destroyed Fender in the first place. :cry:


Keep in mind that pretty much all the topp brass in FMIC today are not Fender guys, but came from the outside. Their interest might be more in short term profits than building a legacy with less profit today but greater survivability for the future.


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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:04 pm
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arth1 wrote:
63supro wrote:
The new regime is no better than the CBS suits that damn near destroyed Fender in the first place. :cry:


Keep in mind that pretty much all the topp brass in FMIC today are not Fender guys, but came from the outside. Their interest might be more in short term profits than building a legacy with less profit today but greater survivability for the future.


Oh absolutely and it's so obvious! On the plus side, I learned to build my own gear including my pedals. It's really satisfying. I also realized how many great amp manufacturers are in existence that still make Fender recreations like Victoria and Allen Amps and how many easy to build kits are around. I know the stuff I build will be around longer than anything being produced by Fender currently, because I built stuff carefully and with pride, just like things were made years ago. There are no shortcuts taken in anything I build. I inspect every joint and measure every part. I know you can't really do this in high production situations, but I know the boutique guys do. I have a middle of the road price option between boutique and junk.

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:17 pm
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63supro wrote:
I know the stuff I build will be around longer than anything being produced by Fender currently, because I built stuff carefully and with pride, just like things were made years ago. There are no shortcuts taken in anything I build. I inspect every joint and measure every part.


+1

As with my restorations and re-creations.

No compromises -- when it looks right it is right. My cabinetry reflects the methods that Sam Hutton used to produce the amps that are now treasured as heirlooms and any chassis work I perform is done with the understanding that St. Leo's spirit may be watching me, perched on my shoulder.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:32 pm
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63supro wrote:
**chomp**
I know the stuff I build will be around longer than anything being produced by Fender currently, because I built stuff carefully and with pride, just like things were made years ago. There are no shortcuts taken in anything I build. I inspect every joint and measure every part. I know you can't really do this in high production situations, but I know the boutique guys do. I have a middle of the road price option between boutique and junk.
**chomp**



I build stuff carefully and with pride and with incompetence. If I had the money for 2 amp kits to get 1 amp I'd consider making one.

Anyone make a Vaporizer kit?


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Post subject: Re: Vaporizer?
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:14 pm
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DarkPenguin wrote:
63supro wrote:
**chomp**
I know the stuff I build will be around longer than anything being produced by Fender currently, because I built stuff carefully and with pride, just like things were made years ago. There are no shortcuts taken in anything I build. I inspect every joint and measure every part. I know you can't really do this in high production situations, but I know the boutique guys do. I have a middle of the road price option between boutique and junk.
**chomp**



I build stuff carefully and with pride and with incompetence. If I had the money for 2 amp kits to get 1 amp I'd consider making one.

Anyone make a Vaporizer kit?


Yeah, you can find them at Radio Shack. :mrgreen:

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