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Post subject: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:26 am
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Hello, I'm Andree.
I want to apologize for my bad english, I'm Italian so I hope You all will forgive me if I'll do mistakes writing.

Here's my question:

I have Fender Hot Rod Deluxe III and I wish to change the tubes because at 2,5/3 of volume the amp begins to break-up. The amp has a break up even with my single coils so when I perform and I put the amp at 3 I don't have clean (except if I don't use vol pot).

I need to have the amp cleaner as possible.. I know the HRDlx are not designed for stay much clean but I bought it for the clean channel :!:

Here's my actual tubes

Pre

V1: Groove Tubes 12AX7-R
V2: Groove Tubes 12AX7
V3: Groove Tubes 12AX7

Power

2 x Groove Tubes 6L6S (rating 3.. so "early distortion")

In Italy I cannot find GT6L6S with rating RED (8-10), but only with rating 3.. so I have to change my tubes, hoping that it will give me a little more headroom..
Searching I saw a lot of tubes, and I choose 3 marks of them.. I want to buy in Europe for problems with extra shipping costs..
I've found

- GT6L6R "Red" rating "8"
- JJ 6L6GC
- TUNG SOL 6L6GC - STR


Someone have recommended the JJ or Tung Sol, but I won't to buy something (JJ/Tung Sol) that maybe can break-up at level 3 like my actual tubes.. And I know that GT6L6R aren't so beautiful.. (someone say that the 6L6R have no harmonic etc.)

So the question is.. which 6l6 do you reccomend for highest headroom? JJ, Tung Sol or GT "R" (Sovtek)?


And another question.. in V1 and V3 (I don't use drive channel of the amp) what pre can I put? (I mean.. 12AT7 or 12AY7 of what mark? JJ? Tung Sol? EH?)
I've tried to switch the V1 with a 12AT7 but this tube was microphonic.. I brought it back to the store and, with Christmas, I could not buy a new one.

The sound that I love should be with nice lows, lovely mids and present trebles..

I hope that You can help me

Thanks

Andree

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:43 am
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Hi Andree88,

You might want to try lower gain preamp and PI tubes, namely a 5751 in V1, and a 12AT7 in V3. This will give you more headroom, cleaner sound. A 12AY7 in V1 might be too low, but some people like it. If possible, pick up an extra 5751 and try one in V1 and V2, but definitely put a 12AT7 in V3. I like to keep a 12AX7 in V2 for the drive channel. The Sovtek 5751 can be hit or miss in V1, so I would go with a better tube for V1, maybe a GE or JAN, or even a JJ would be good.

As for the output tubes, changing to the GT6L6R "Red" rating "8" would be a big improvement over the "3" rating that you have now, as far as better cleans. If you use the GT6L6R "Red" rating "8" and the 5751 in V1 and 12AT7 in V3, you should have a great improvement in clean sound.

The JJ or Tung Sol would be fine choices if you can get them in a high rating. Try to get tubes rated for higher "Ip" (Plate current), the higher numbers mean cleaner/more headroom. If going with the JJ or Tung Sol, I would look for tubes with Ip rating as close to 40 as you can get.

If you change output tubes, be sure to set the bias properly. The factory bias on these amps is usually very cold.

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:34 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Hi Andree88,

You might want to try lower gain preamp and PI tubes, namely a 5751 in V1, and a 12AT7 in V3. This will give you more headroom, cleaner sound. A 12AY7 in V1 might be too low, but some people like it. If possible, pick up an extra 5751 and try one in V1 and V2, but definitely put a 12AT7 in V3. I like to keep a 12AX7 in V2 for the drive channel. The Sovtek 5751 can be hit or miss in V1, so I would go with a better tube for V1, maybe a GE or JAN, or even a JJ would be good.

As for the output tubes, changing to the GT6L6R "Red" rating "8" would be a big improvement over the "3" rating that you have now, as far as better cleans. If you use the GT6L6R "Red" rating "8" and the 5751 in V1 and 12AT7 in V3, you should have a great improvement in clean sound.

The JJ or Tung Sol would be fine choices if you can get them in a high rating. Try to get tubes rated for higher "Ip" (Plate current), the higher numbers mean cleaner/more headroom. If going with the JJ or Tung Sol, I would look for tubes with Ip rating as close to 40 as you can get.

If you change output tubes, be sure to set the bias properly. The factory bias on these amps is usually very cold.


Thanks for the reply, Shimmilou.
How can I see if the JJ or Tung Sol has high "Ip"?
For example I findo only "JJ 6L6GC" on web but the vendor cannot tell me the rating :(

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:45 pm
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Talk to these guys:

http://www.eurotubes.com/

Look at this option:

Fender HRD Max Headroom Option
Price: $74.00
Description: This kit uses a matched pair of the JJ 6L6GC's in a moderate grade for headroom along with an ECC81 for V1 to drop the gain in the front end, an ECC832 for V2 to drop the gain in the drive channel and a balanced ECC83S for the phase inverter in V3. This will get maximum power and headroom for you Jazz and Country players.


found on this page:

https://www.eurotubes.com/cart/index.ph ... gory_id=32

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:45 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Talk to these guys:

http://www.eurotubes.com/

Look at this option:

Fender HRD Max Headroom Option
Price: $74.00
Description: This kit uses a matched pair of the JJ 6L6GC's in a moderate grade for headroom along with an ECC81 for V1 to drop the gain in the front end, an ECC832 for V2 to drop the gain in the drive channel and a balanced ECC83S for the phase inverter in V3. This will get maximum power and headroom for you Jazz and Country players.


found on this page:

https://www.eurotubes.com/cart/index.ph ... gory_id=32


Hi Bluesky, thank you!
I saw it but the problem is the shipping charge (USA to Italy) :(
Eurotubes will sell 2 6L6GC JJ for high headroom if I ask them..? Now I will write them
Thanks again :)

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:52 pm
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Good luck. 8)

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:38 pm
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Just to add more alternatives... the 6072/12AY7 maybe a tube to try in the input sections. If you really want a quieter section, along with more clean headroom... look for a nice mil spec 6072A.

https://www.tubeworld.com/6072a1130.jpg

https://www.tubeworld.com/ck6072.jpg


Good luck!


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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:49 am
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Andree88 wrote:
...Thanks for the reply, Shimmilou.
How can I see if the JJ or Tung Sol has high "Ip"?...


Most any supplier should be able give you the tube rating that you desire if they have them in stock, just ask until you find a supplier that will cooperate. I often ask about the tube rating that a supplier might have before ordering, most of the time a phone call is better than email. Sometimes I have to go with another brand to get the rating that I want. I think that you might like the GT 6L6 R "8" if you use the lower gain preamp tubes. I used the "R" (Russian) GTs with a high rating in my amp for many years and had decent clean sound. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:05 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Andree88 wrote:
...Thanks for the reply, Shimmilou.
How can I see if the JJ or Tung Sol has high "Ip"?...


Most any supplier should be able give you the tube rating that you desire if they have them in stock, just ask until you find a supplier that will cooperate. I often ask about the tube rating that a supplier might have before ordering, most of the time a phone call is better than email. Sometimes I have to go with another brand to get the rating that I want. I think that you might like the GT 6L6 R "8" if you use the lower gain preamp tubes. I used the "R" (Russian) GTs with a high rating in my amp for many years and had decent clean sound. :idea:


I've called 4 differents supplier but all said to me "I don't know rating of JJ" :(
So I think I will buy a pair of GT6L6R.. but I've red that "5881" (6L6R) have less output and less headroom than 6L6GC.. it's true? I don't want to have less headroom than now :( 'cause my purpose is to have clean to high volumes.. not clean and less volume. I'm sorry if I'm in mistake, can You all tell me if it's true that 6L6R aka 5881 Sovtek has less volume and headroom than my GT6L6S??
Thanks, happy new year!

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:58 am
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The 6L6GC was designed to have more output than the 5881/6L6WGB, under similar conditions.

See Class AB1, push-pull data for both (usual application in Fender amps):

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/fran ... /6L6GC.pdf

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/fran ... 5/5881.pdf


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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:09 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
The 6L6GC was designed to have more output than the 5881/6L6WGB, under similar conditions.

See Class AB1, push-pull data for both (usual application in Fender amps):

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/fran ... /6L6GC.pdf

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/fran ... 5/5881.pdf


Thank You.. so it's better for me to buy a pair of JJ (output/headroom)?
Thanks again!

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:33 am
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On paper the new Tungsol 7581 has more headroom than the usual 6L6GC (like the JJ). The pin-out is the same. You need to re-bias amp to 6L6GC standards.

http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6L6-5 ... 7581-6L6GC


Original Tungsol (USA) data:

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/fran ... 7/7581.pdf


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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:55 am
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The GT 6L6 R (5881WXT) is not a typical 5881, and I have found suppliers have them rated at 30 watts, so you should have the same output/headroom as with most any 6L6. As I said before, I have the exact same tubes that I used for years in my HRDlx, "Red" rating, and they sounded clean even before I knew whether or not they were 30 watt tubes.

It is possible that the JJ or Tung Sol could have a cleaner sound with more headroom than the GT, if they are rated high enough. It's hard to imagine that any place that sells tubes can't give you a rating, that is bizarre. In all of Europe, no one rates their tubes for current? :?

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:43 am
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shimmilou wrote:
It is possible that the JJ or Tung Sol could have a cleaner sound with more headroom than the GT, if they are rated high enough. It's hard to imagine that any place that sells tubes can't give you a rating, that is bizarre. In all of Europe, no one rates their tubes for current? :?


To be honest, I really don't care about the tube's rating. I just bias them to where I want them and where they sound best. Colder bias (50 to 60%) for cleaner sound with more headroom; hotter bias (65 to 70%) for thicker sound and earlier breakup. Since the HRD has adjustable fixed bias, the OP should just do the same and quit obsessing over a "rating".

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Post subject: Re: Tubes for Hot Rod Deluxe III for max headroom?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:39 pm
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Thank you all for your help!

First: BMW2002Ti, thanks for let me know the Tungsol 7581.. the only problem is that I cannot find it in europe.. and Eurotubes (from USA to Italy) has shipping charges :(

Second: shimmilou, thanks again. I've asked the rating but no one can tell me nothing about it (I've called them..), I don't know why.. they only said "I don't know, JJ don't has labels and I don't know how to search the rating" :(

Third: bluesky636 I've heard this about the bias correction.. For exaple to my 6L6S I have bias set to 60 mV (I've red it at "bias test point" on Hot Rod).. Should I try to put it on 45/50 mV? But in that way will the sound be sterile and "fake" (cold bias)? The problem is that I don't know how find de 50/60% of a tube.. I know that the plate current should be tested at pin 3 of amp but I won't die :( I've found it on internet..
http://www.webervst.com/tubes1/calcbias.htm
What if I set my GT 6L6S to 45 mV instead of 60 mv? Should my tubes "die"?

Thanks again guys. You're savin' me from break up :p

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Last edited by Andree88 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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