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Post subject: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:28 am
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I posted a thread on this forum a few weeks back asking about the differences between the Princeton 65 Reverb reissue and the 68 Reverb Reissue--thanks to all of the responses I was able to make a more informed decision and finally decided on the 65--I really love how smooth this amp is--it's got very balanced upper mids and never gets harsh--the reverb and trem are great and the rattling baffle issue is non existent (I believe this has been corrected by Fender in the last couple of years). All in all I am very happy.

Having said that I would not mind if the amp had just a little more bite--yes, I dig the vintage smoothness, but I would also like to be able to dial in a more cutting sound when i want it--I can just about get there but in order to do so I am almost cranking the treble all the way up.

Can anyone tell me how the tone controls on these amps work, i.e., when bass & treble are at 1 are they disengaged or cutting? Does this amp work like other traditional Fender "Tone Stack" amps in that more treble equals less bass and vice versa?

Thanks for any tips!


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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:52 pm
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The Blackface Fender tone stack is designed with scooped mids. In the case of your amp, the midrange resistor value is equivalent to about 6.5 on a 1 to 10 tone knob. The only way to get more mids (I assume that is what you mean by more "bite") would be to either increase the value of the mid resistor which will change the overall gain (and affect both bass and highs) or increase the value of the treble cap to maybe 500 pF which will increase the upper mids.

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:27 am
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You might get the desired result with some different tubes, preamp and/or output, or even a speaker change.

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:09 am
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shimmilou wrote:
You might get the desired result with some different tubes, preamp and/or output, or even a speaker change.


Thanks Shimmilou--yes, I have thought about those tweaks--tube changes in my experience are usually more subtle than what I am looking for--output transformer could be something to look at although I believe these amps come with a good one (a schumacher I believe). Speaker change might be the thing--any speakers suggestions for a little more upper midrange "bite" in the 2--5k bandwidth?


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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:19 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
The Blackface Fender tone stack is designed with scooped mids. In the case of your amp, the midrange resistor value is equivalent to about 6.5 on a 1 to 10 tone knob. The only way to get more mids (I assume that is what you mean by more "bite") would be to either increase the value of the mid resistor which will change the overall gain (and affect both bass and highs) or increase the value of the treble cap to maybe 500 pF which will increase the upper mids.


Bluesky636, thanks for the info--as far as changing cap values I can see your point, however, I'd be interested to know just what happens to other freuencies when I boost/cut bass and/or treble on this amp? Yes, I agree, using my ears is the right place to start, but I want a more scientific approach especially if I decide to change a speaker or cap values otherwise I may not make the right choices...

bluesky636 wrote:
In the case of your amp, the midrange resistor value is equivalent to about 6.5 on a 1 to 10 tone knob.


Can you elaborate on this a little, namely what this means when I am tweaking my bass and treble knobs? More bass=less treble? more treble=less bass? no treble & no bass=more mids? Just checking, but you are aware there is no mid knob on the Princeton, right?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:05 am
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Phillpp, when you say bite do you mean more gain?


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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:06 am
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Philipp123 wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
The Blackface Fender tone stack is designed with scooped mids. In the case of your amp, the midrange resistor value is equivalent to about 6.5 on a 1 to 10 tone knob. The only way to get more mids (I assume that is what you mean by more "bite") would be to either increase the value of the mid resistor which will change the overall gain (and affect both bass and highs) or increase the value of the treble cap to maybe 500 pF which will increase the upper mids.


Bluesky636, thanks for the info--as far as changing cap values I can see your point, however, I'd be interested to know just what happens to other freuencies when I boost/cut bass and/or treble on this amp? Yes, I agree, using my ears is the right place to start, but I want a more scientific approach especially if I decide to change a speaker or cap values otherwise I may not make the right choices...

bluesky636 wrote:
In the case of your amp, the midrange resistor value is equivalent to about 6.5 on a 1 to 10 tone knob.


Can you elaborate on this a little, namely what this means when I am tweaking my bass and treble knobs? More bass=less treble? more treble=less bass? no treble & no bass=more mids? Just checking, but you are aware there is no mid knob on the Princetohttp://support.fender.com/schem ... matic.pdfn, right?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


Yes, I am well aware that there is no midrange control on your amp, but there is a midrange resistor sized to emulate a midrange control setting as I described.

http://support.fender.com/schematics/gu ... ematic.pdf

If you want to see what happens as you change the tone controls, use the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator:

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/download.html

Use the "Fender" calculator. Change the midrange pot value in the calculator from 10K to 6.8K and set the slider to 100%. Then you can change the bass and treble sliders to see their effect on amp frequency response (leave the midrange slider set to 100%). You can then change the other components (usually the treble cap and the s l o p e resistor) to see the impact on upper and lower mids.

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:11 am
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mojjett wrote:
Phillpp, when you say bite do you mean more gain?


The only way to get significantly more gain out of this amp would be to either completely redesign it or add an overdrive/distortion pedal in front of it. In any case, the OP is asking questions about tone control response and interaction, not about overall gain. He also said:

Philipp123 wrote:
any speakers suggestions for a little more upper midrange "bite" in the 2--5k bandwidth?

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Last edited by bluesky636 on Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:12 am
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Philipp123 wrote:
output transformer could be something to look at although I believe these amps come with a good one (a schumacher I believe).


Changing the output tranny will not do what you want.

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:19 am
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You might want to try an EQ between the guitar and the amp, and boost the freqs that you want to accentuate.


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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:22 am
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bclarke675 wrote:
You might want to try an EQ between the guitar and the amp, and boost the freqs that you want to accentuate.


+1

That's the most precise method of reconfiguring a frequency-response curve.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:32 am
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[/quote]Yes, I am well aware that there is no midrange control on your amp, but there is a midrange resistor sized to emulate a midrange control setting as I described.

http://support.fender.com/schematics/gu ... ematic.pdf

If you want to see what happens as you change the tone controls, use the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator:

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/download.html

Use the "Fender" calculator. Change the midrange pot value in the calculator from 10K to 6.8K and set the slider to 100%. Then you can change the bass and treble sliders to see their effect on amp frequency response (leave the midrange slider set to 100%). You can then change the other components (usually the treble cap and the s l o p e resistor) to see the impact on upper and lower mids.[/quote]

I did look into the tone stack calc, but unfortunately I don't own a Window's machine so no luck with viewing eq curves. I am aware my next question is a bit loaded, but: do you really think changing caps will get me more upper mid range bite vs a new speaker? Yes, I agree a different speaker is probably the way to go--just curious--have you ever swapped caps out in an amp and tweaked something to your liking based on that alone?


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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:16 am
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Philipp123 wrote:
...Speaker change might be the thing--any speakers suggestions for a little more upper midrange "bite" in the 2--5k bandwidth?


The Texas Heat will give you quite a bit more "bite" in that range, possibly too much, I don't know your taste exactly. Maybe a Vintage 30 would be better in this amp, for a bit smoother mid-highs while still having some good crispness. I recently bought some Texas Heat and Red White and Blues speakers (two of each in a switchable 4x12 cab), and I already have a couple of V30s, so I have a good idea of how they compare.

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:28 am
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Philipp123 wrote:
I did look into the tone stack calc, but unfortunately I don't own a Window's machine so no luck with viewing eq curves. I am aware my next question is a bit loaded, but: do you really think changing caps will get me more upper mid range bite vs a new speaker? Yes, I agree a different speaker is probably the way to go--just curious--have you ever swapped caps out in an amp and tweaked something to your liking based on that alone?


This is not the tone stack for your amp (it is for an amp that I built). However, it clearly shows the difference in upper mids with a 250 pF treble cap (green curve) and 500 pF treble cap (red curve). The answer to your question should be obvious.

Image

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Post subject: Re: Princeton 65 Reverb Reissue Tone Control Question
Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:15 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
Philipp123 wrote:
I did look into the tone stack calc, but unfortunately I don't own a Window's machine so no luck with viewing eq curves. I am aware my next question is a bit loaded, but: do you really think changing caps will get me more upper mid range bite vs a new speaker? Yes, I agree a different speaker is probably the way to go--just curious--have you ever swapped caps out in an amp and tweaked something to your liking based on that alone?


This is not the tone stack for your amp (it is for an amp that I built). However, it clearly shows the difference in upper mids with a 250 pF treble cap (green curve) and 500 pF treble cap (red curve). The answer to your question should be obvious.

Image


Interesting stuff--thanks for the in depth response--this definitely shows how much a cap swap can do! However, knowing as little about speaker frequency responses as I do, do the freq responses of different speakers typically vary "a lot" more than what a cap swap can do? Yes, I am talking generally here.


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