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Post subject: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:47 pm
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Just thought I'd add to the info posted re adding cabs to amps.

Before buying my cab I read up on it and found it all very confusing.

My supersonic ext spkr connector says 'parallel 8 ohm total - internal spkr must be connected'.
The particular cab I wanted was an Ampeg 1x12 60w (V30) rated at 16 ohm, so I was a bit worried about how it would work. Some of the stuff I read said not to mix impedance, vol would be reduced, one spkr would work more than the other, etc, etc.
Well I'm happy to report that it works great. Apparent vol greater, spkrs working evenly and no problems with the amp. The Vintage 30 adds more warmth and fullness to the sound.

Hope it helps others.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:44 pm
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Glad it's working out for you, and Fender amps are pretty tolerant of mismatches.

But you are running a mismatch, and you misunderstood the labeling & manual.

You should be running a total 8 ohm load. That's one 8 ohm speaker or two 16 ohm speaker cabs. You shouldn't be running the 8 ohm internal speaker along with any external speaker -- if you run a single 8 ohm extension cab, you unplug the internal speaker and plug the cab into the internal speaker jack (you only use the second speaker jack if you're running two extension cabs -- then each cab should be 16 ohms for a total load of 8 ohms).

From the manual: " A speaker MUST be plugged into the INTERNAL SPEAKER
jack when the Super–Sonic amplifier is ON or damage may
occur. Switch the amplifier OFF, or to STANDBY while chang-
ing speaker connections."

That's "A speaker must be plugged into the internal speaker jack", not "The internal speaker must be plugged into the internal speaker jack". If you only have one speaker plugged in (whether one extension cab or the internal speaker) you have to use the internal speaker jack -- you only use the second jack if you're running two extension cabs.

As it is, you're running a total load of 5.33 ohms (8 + 16 in parallel). That's a mild mismatch and is probably safe, but may cause problems if you crank the amp all the way up (although it might survive even that without problems).

The 8 ohm speaker is getting 2/3's of the amp's power, with only 1/3 of the power going to the V30. V30's are extremely efficient (produce a lot of sound per watt) and because it's more efficient than the internal Emi Fender Special Design speaker, the volume of both speakers is pretty well matched. (If they made a 16 ohm version of the stock speaker and you ran it along with a 16 ohm V30 so that each got half of the amp's power, the V30 would be so much louder that you'd barely hear the internal speaker.)

Overall volume might actually be greater running just the 16 ohm V30 cab (plugged into the internal speaker jack). But it might not sound as full. It would also be a greater impedance mismatch (still probably safe -- most amps are ok with a 2:1 or a 1:2 mismatch -- but there's no guarantee of that.)

Note: my pdf viewer won't open Fender's schematic for the SS22. It's possible that the second speaker jack is a switching jack that switches both jacks to a 4 ohm tap on the output transformer -- in that case you would run an 8 ohm cab along with the internal 8 ohm speaker. (Your current 5.33 ohm load is plenty close to 4 ohms and would be completely safe, although the V30 would still only get 1/3 of the amp's power.)


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:33 am
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No switching jack on the SS22, and no impedance taps on the OT, but the main jack is a shorting jack and that is why that jack has to be used.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:06 am
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Thanks for all that info.

I kinda did understand the situation, but as you say there seems to be a good margin for error with Fender valve amps and there seems to be so many variables (ie. Speaker efficiency, etc) that effect the outcome.

I took the final word from an amp repairer/builder who, as soon as I mentioned Fender valve amp, said no problems, it'll be fine.

So I guess, without realizing it, the way I did it, turned out to be the best way to achieve what I wanted.

Just thought by sharing my experience that it may save others from stressing.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:03 am
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Image

I liked the cab because it is the exact width of my Supersonic and it has the Vintage 30 speaker.

Really pleased with the tone, volume and look.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:22 am
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Sweet^4 !

The more speakers I try, the more I realize how fantastic the V30s are, great choice.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:39 pm
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Update:

Well I guess I spoke too soon...

For a week or so all was ok at practice volumes but when I got together with my buddies and cranked it up, it was clear it couldn't cope.

It was worth a try...

Now I have put a 16 ohm Vintage 30 in my Supersonic to give me the correct 8 ohm total when attached to the cab (with the same speaker).

Now I'm interested to see if all is ok if I use the amp without the cab?

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Last edited by Ess on Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:25 am
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Likely there'll be no hazard using the amp with a single 16Ω driver but the amp will not develop its full rated power at that impedance. Thus, a corresponding decrease in maximum volume will be observed.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:29 am
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Ess wrote:
Update:

Well I guess I spoke too soon...

For a week or so all was ok at practice volumes but when I got together with my buddies and cranked it up, it was clear it couldn't cope.

Now I have put a 16 ohm Vintage 30 in my Supersonic to give me the correct 8 ohm total when attached to the cab (with the same speaker).

It was worth a try...

Now I'm interested to see if all is ok if I use the amp without the cab?

The way Fender intended the SS22 to be used is:
a) with the internal 8 ohm speaker alone
b) with the internal 8 ohm speaker and an 8 ohm extension cab plugged into the ext. cab jack. (overall impedance to the amp=4 ohms)
The info Fender gives is very misleading and so I contacted them directly for clarification before I purchased mine.

Changing the internal to 16 ohms and running a 16 ohm ext. cab in parallel if just fine as the overall impedance is 8 ohms. (As you've discovered they should both be the same to get even power distribution. Volume, can also be affected by speaker sensitivity, but that's another subject.)

Running the amp with just the 16 ohm internal speaker is contrary to what Fender specifies and would surely void the warranty. Some will tell you that the mismatch of amp=8ohm to a speaker=16ohms is OK, but Fender won't.

I don't care to experiment with a >$1000 amp.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:07 am
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IM4Tone wrote:
Ess wrote:
Update:

Well I guess I spoke too soon...

For a week or so all was ok at practice volumes but when I got together with my buddies and cranked it up, it was clear it couldn't cope.

Now I have put a 16 ohm Vintage 30 in my Supersonic to give me the correct 8 ohm total when attached to the cab (with the same speaker).

It was worth a try...

Now I'm interested to see if all is ok if I use the amp without the cab?

The way Fender intended the SS22 to be used is:
a) with the internal 8 ohm speaker alone
b) with the internal 8 ohm speaker and an 8 ohm extension cab plugged into the ext. cab jack. (overall impedance to the amp=4 ohms)
The info Fender gives is very misleading and so I contacted them directly for clarification before I purchased mine.


Well Strayedstrater might beg to differ. His explanation is totally contrary to your advice from Fender. I tend to believe him and suspect you don't always get knowledgeable people at Fender. The Au Fender distributor told me my initial setup would be ok, as did the shop assistant and other so called experts.

Shimmilou seems to know his stuff and has verified that the Output Transformer doesn't have any switching from 8 to 4 ohms when the Ext speaker jack is used.

The confusion continues...

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Last edited by Ess on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:37 am
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I'm shocked that this issue (apparently) can't be easily figured out, even after contacting Fender. It's not that difficult.... (but apparently it is...)

I have an S22 arriving tomorrow, and have no intention of using an external cab BUT- If I ever do, I'd love to get a conclusive answer! (as would Ess!)


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:08 am
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Ess wrote:
IM4Tone wrote:
Ess wrote:
Update:

Well I guess I spoke too soon...

For a week or so all was ok at practice volumes but when I got together with my buddies and cranked it up, it was clear it couldn't cope.

Now I have put a 16 ohm Vintage 30 in my Supersonic to give me the correct 8 ohm total when attached to the cab (with the same speaker).

It was worth a try...

Now I'm interested to see if all is ok if I use the amp without the cab?

The way Fender intended the SS22 to be used is:
a) with the internal 8 ohm speaker alone
b) with the internal 8 ohm speaker and an 8 ohm extension cab plugged into the ext. cab jack. (overall impedance to the amp=4 ohms)
The info Fender gives is very misleading and so I contacted them directly for clarification before I purchased mine.


Well Strayedstrater might beg to differ. His explanation is totally contrary to your advice from Fender. I tend to believe him and suspect you don't always get knowledgeable people at Fender. The Au Fender distributor told me my initial setup would be ok, as did the shop assistant and other so called experts.

The confusion continues...

You should re-read what Strayedstrater said. He has taken the ultra conservative approach (since he was/is unfamiliar with the specifics of the SS22) and nothing he has said is incorrect. His advice is to always have the exact 8ohm load. The only difference in Fender's clarification is that the total load is safe at 4 ohms, but not 16 ohms. Even Str' has stated "most amps are ok with a 2:1 or a 1:2 mismatch -- but there's no guarantee of that" which again is common. It's just that upon contact, Fender recommends against the 1:2 mismatch.

Also, if you are familiar with a variety of the newer Fender amps, the practice I stated (given by Fender) is consistent with many other models.

Again, you need to read it again as obviously you don't understand.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:30 am
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Strayedstrater said the TOTAL impedance must always be 8 ohms. He also says you should never use the internal speaker when you use a cab. Shimmilou has verified that the Supersonic 22 does NOT have a switching Output Transformer so it does not drop to 4 ohm when you plug in an Ext speaker like some other models do. I believe he has seen the circuit board schematics and knows his stuff.

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Last edited by Ess on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:46 am
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Ess wrote:
Strayedstrater said the TOTAL impedance must always be 8 ohms. Shimmilou has verified that the Supersonic 22 does NOT have a switching Output Transformer so it does not drop to 4 ohm when you plug in an Ext speaker like some other models do.


And therein lies the confusion... any amp that has an external speaker jack (that is meant to be used WITH the internal speaker on as well), should have a tapped transformer. IMO.

Even tho a 2:1 mismatch is safe, I'd rather not have to worry about it.


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 22 added speaker cab
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:53 am
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Scour this forum for threads about an impedance mismatch within a 2 to 1 ratio causing problems with tube amps. Hint: probably not one thread.

Check the fact that many amps have an external speaker jack, yet no impedance taps on the OT to keep the impedance matched when using an external speaker cab. DR and TR, just for two examples.

I routinely use many types of amps with mismatched speaker/amp impedance, within a 2 to 1 ratio, with zero problems. The only amp that I would be concerned about using with an impedance mismatch is a Marshall.

From a Mesa manual:

When running a higher resistance ( for example: 8 ohm output into 16 ohm cabinet ), a slightly different feel and response will be eminent. A slight mismatch can provide a darker smoother tone with a little less output and attack. This response is a result of the amplifier running a bit cooler. Sometimes when using more than one cabinet a mismatch will be the only option.

Also note the listing of "safe mismatches" in many Mesa manuals.

The back of a Carvin amp:

Image

Many will be conservative when making recommendations about impedance matching, and many misunderstand the physics involved. The impedance will change with frequency, so the amp rating is nominal anyway, and is rated simply to get the most power from the amp (efficiency). The overwhelming evidence is that a mismatch within a 2 to 1 ratio is not a problem for a tube amp.

Just because the back of some amps might say "warning" doesn't mean that the amp will explode if the impedance is mismatched, but simply that the amp will not develop its full rated output.

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