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Post subject: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:34 am
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As the title says, I am currently looking into buying a tube amp. The money is tight(er) so my budget is around 1000$ - preferably under. I am looking to buy a used amp.
I have never owned a tube amp before, so if my estimations are off somewhere - please tell me.

What I need:
- classic Fender clean sound coming out of the amp - think Twin Reverb-wise (obviously that would be my choice of amp if I had the money)
- at least 40W of raw tube power - I have a band am able to crank it up a bit, we have gigs regularly, usually in venues that support about 200 people. I am not sure whether 60W would be too much for such venues? The amps are miked, but I want some clean headroom
- a reliable amp that I can use without a backup

What I don't need:
- effects on the amp
- a heavy (30kg+) amp that would make the transport difficult

I plan on buying Mustang Floor multi-effects unit (I currently own a Mustang IV) and get my sound effects from MF so I don't think the amp would need any extra channels. I reckon the overdrive will be similar to the one tube amp produce on their own when they start to distort (or the one from a drive channel).

Most of the sites like ebay, sadly, are not very useful for me as I am from Slovenia, EU, and most of the stuff being sold there is from the US - the shipping and import costs almost double the price of the amp :/

What I have been looking into mostly, are the Fender Hot Rod series amps. Seeing how they are the best selling product, I reckon they have a good quality?

Here is some stuff I've found on a page similar to ebay, except that it's only for Slovenia and most of the stuff is being sold inside Slovenia. I'd give you links, but unless you speak Slovenian, you wouldn't understand anything.
Found a used Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, 40W, made in USA, the speaker was replaced by a celestion vintage 30. The amp is supposed to be in a good condition, although there are no pictures, but I would try out the amp before buying anyway. The seller also adds a boos ds-2 distortion pedal (obviously not a must, seeing how I'll buy the MF, but it could be useful I suppose - I have never tried it out before so I have no clue whether the pedal is a good one or not, nor how much it costs). The amp has been played on a total of 3 gigs and during band rehearsals. All being sold for 400€ (540$).
Found a Fender Hot Rod Deville 410, 60W (I am not sure whether that would be too much for my needs?), almost 3 years old but in mint condition (according to pictures), has been used for 1h during this time according to the seller, but was too loud and was left to stand there until he decided to sell it. Also has a cover for the amp. Costs 690€ (930$).
Fender Blues Deluxe - 40W, 1x12 speaker, supposedly in mint condition. Costs 600€ (800$)

Which of these 3 amps do you think is the best and why? Do you have any suggestions as to what kinds of amps should I be looking at (within that price range)?

Also, those of you that have owned a Mustang amp and then switched to Mustang floor + a tube amp - what kind of a difference is it? Do you lose any tonal range?

Thanks :)

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:54 am
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Of the three you listed (HRDlx, HRDeville, and BDRI), there appears to be fewer quality issues w/ the BDRI. That, of course depends on the era the amp was manufactured.

In the US, the HRDlx and BDRI sell for close to the same price new and used. The Deville goes for more.

There are many posts here on both the HRDlx and BDRI that you can read and lots of demos on YouTube to give you an idea. (Utilize the 'search' feature) The Dlx has a much higher gain on chnl 2 and I personally don't care for it. The BDRI has more of a bluesy gain I find more in line w/ my choice of music.

I don't think too little volume will be an issue on any of these, nor in a 200 people venue will they likely be too much.

Can't help w/ the Mustang Floor unit....I dislike multi-effect units and opt for several select individual pedals.

Good luck in your search.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:55 am
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Clean headroom and big power go hand in hand so your comment that you want "at least 40 watts" is definitely on the right track but doesn't go far enough. You should prolly be looking for more. The HotRod/Blues Deluxe is not going to get you there if your ideal amp is a Twin Reverb. Sorry. Not even close so stop thinking about that right now. It's not an option. One amp that will get you where you want to be and within budget is the Blues Deville, particularly the 212 version. Try to find a Blues Deville rather than a HotRod. The 212 is not made anymore so you'd have to find one on the used market. That's also why it would be within budget. Of course if you're looking on the used market you might as well just go ahead and get a Twin Reverb Reissue and get the amp you actually want. You should be able to find one within your budget. Unfortunately, one of your "don't needs" is in conflict with your "do needs". I already said clean headroom and big power go hand in hand. Problem is that doesn't come without heft. You're going to have to decide which is more important to you. Keeping weight down or big clean headroom. If you absolutely have to have both low weight and clean headroom then your journey from solid state to tubes is prolly ill advised.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:47 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
If you absolutely have to have both low weight and clean headroom then your journey from solid state to tubes is prolly ill advised.


+1

Tubes require iron......lots of it.

The Twin Reverb's heft *might* be significantly lightened by using neodymium speakers.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:01 pm
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Thanks guys. I am now confused though, is 40W enough or not? :P

One can clean up the sound with a volume pot on guitar, if need be, so even if the amp starts to distort due to not enough headroom - is that 'cleaned' sound any close to what the Twin sounds like?

Also why do you think they won't get me there? Are they too dark or not as sparkling clean?

I would have loved to buy a Twin Reverb Reissue from the used market, but there aren't any here and, as I said, buying from ebay would almost double the price, unless the seller is from EU. There are 2 Fender Twin Reverb Silverfaces on the market, just within my budget (730€and 750€), but I think 130W of raw tube power is way too much unless you're on really huge stages where you'd get to crank it up a bit. It is also, according to the info I found on the net, around 44kgs, which is a lot to carry. There's also one 100W Fender Twin Reverb, from 1975, but unfortunately it's 1000€ which is out of my budget.

As I said - I haven't owned any tube amps yet, but those amps that I've been looking at weigh around 20-25 kgs. It's not that big of a deal if it's 30 or 35 max, but anything else would be a bit too much.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:09 pm
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You can always turn down a big amp but if you don't have enough amp there's not much you can do. You said you wanted clean headroom. A SilverFace Twin Reverb will give you that and it will be a better amp than the modern reissue, providing it's in good shape that is. You'd want to be sure about its condition. 135 watts is a lot and it's also heavy but a 40 watt 112 HRD combo isn't going to give you that kind of headroom. There were SilverFace TRs in a lower power range, 100 watts I think, from '76 and prior. TRs prior to '72 did not have the master volume which would likely be better in terms of investment value.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:14 pm
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You may also want to look for a SilverFace Pro Reverb. The later ones were 70 watts and had two 12s like the TR. Earlier PRs were 40 watts. Some of the PRs had solid state rectifiers which I think should enhance clean headroom as they should theoretically be stiffer.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:33 pm
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That's true, but wouldn't turning it down make it sound too thin? Because I reckon it would have to be set 2 or max 2,5 for the volume I need.

Thanks I'll be looking out for SF Pro Reverbs as well :) I am in no rush to buy, so I can easily wait and see if one comes up for sale :) Hoping they will have released the Mustang Floor v2 by then as well, to get v1 even cheaper :D

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:55 pm
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At anything resembling a typical gig volume the TR will sound full and throaty. You can also consider the Blues DeVille as a viable option, particularly one from the early to mid 90s. Not as powerful at 60 watts and also not quite as clean in the traditional vintage Fender clean sense but still very full and chimey. Still heavy, though. In my opinion it was the best of the Blues/HRD series. It may be easier to find and it may be less expensive as well but it won't have the same investment value.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:29 pm
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Nothing is quite as 'sparkling clean as a Twin. Twin is the definition of clean, but as already mentioned here, also heavy.

Your definition of your common venue, around 200 people and mic'd, from my experience, says the BDRI is more than enough, and the 'clean' channel (preamp) will have good headroom. I've never had a problem with insufficient headroom with my BDRI and the HRDlx should be the same (on the clean channel). I always mic an amp to keep stage volumes at levels that won't impair hearing. If you run high volume on the "drive" channel, it will breakup, but I've had more difficulty getting that breakup at sound levels that I prefer, and that's with a bass, drums, another guitar and sometimes a keyboard.

Your best bet is to first listen to some demos where the presenter tells what the knob setting is as he/she plays. Listen to quite a few. Then try to get a test drive on the amp you are considering buying (or at least a good return policy). Crank it to where you think you'll be playing and then some more. You'll know then.

Pristine clean comes with wattage. Most people want to switch to tube amps so they can get to the edge of breakup for that warm, creamy tone....at least when driven hard. If you want to stay totally clean and have portability, maybe you should stick with solid state.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:04 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
You may also want to look for a SilverFace Pro Reverb. The later ones were 70 watts and had two 12s like the TR. Earlier PRs were 40 watts. Some of the PRs had solid state rectifiers which I think should enhance clean headroom as they should theoretically be stiffer.


Only the 70-watt ultra-linear Pro Reverb had the diode stack in lieu of a tube rectifier. And as such, they sound very little like the original AA165 circuit. But for the extended clean headroom the OP seems to want, the UL model might be just the ticket.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:07 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:

Only the 70-watt ultra-linear Pro Reverb had the diode stack in lieu of a tube rectifier. And as such, they sound very little like the original AA165 circuit. But for the extended clean headroom the OP seems to want, the UL model might be just the ticket.

Arjay

I think that's the only version I was ever familiar with. It was a '78 (I think) and it was clean and definitely loud enough. If I recall correctly I think it was also noticably lighter than a TR like 10 or 15 pounds or so.

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:36 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I think that's the only version I was ever familiar with. It was a '78 (I think) and it was clean and definitely loud enough. If I recall correctly I think it was also noticably lighter than a TR like 10 or 15 pounds or so.


Easily!

There's about 30 lbs worth of trannies in an UL Twin Reverb.

OTOH, the entire 40-watt Pro Reverb Amp weighs in at around 55 lbs.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:22 pm
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So there you have it, Neimenljivi.
Several options.
Have fun shopping!

BTW, I take it by your handle you are of Yugoslavian descent?
Kupemi ladno pivo!

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Post subject: Re: In the market for a tube amp
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:05 am
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Thanks :) I will try to find something good and keep an eye out for the amps you've mentioned. Hopefully one will pop up that will fit most of the requirements :)

Yeah I am from ex Yugoslavia. Slovenia was the first one to quit it :)

Prinesi ti meni hladno pivo :D

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