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Post subject: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:43 am
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Bought a new HRD III, I like the sound of it and everything, but the volume control knob is super sensitive, making it very hard to control the volume, or dial it in just right. I mostly just use the clean channel with pedals, so I am talking about the very first volume knob on the amp, on the left.

I had been looking at used Hot Rots, but I read to where the volume pots were supposed to be improved in the HRD III to be more "linear" and work better, along with some other improvements, so I held out for the new model. But I have been disappointed with the volume control so far. I play in a classic rock band, and we play in various small and medium sized sized venues, some out doors as well.

The amp has plenty of power and good sound, and I seldom have to turn it up past 2. The problem is that the difference in volume from say 1.7 to 1.75 is huge, and that is a teeny,tiny, almost imperceptible movement of the knob. And if you barley touch the volume knob, it can dramatically change how loud you are. I set down a small hand towel on top of the amp when we were playing the other night, and just picking the towel up was enough to move the knob slightly and change my volume level.

I have read that the power tubes can be replaced so the amp puts out 28 watts instead of 40 watts. So I was wondering if that would make the volume control knob less sensitive, since I am assuming that I would be turning it up much higher than 2, maybe up to 4 or 5, to get the same volume level I am using now.

Has any one changed out the tubes like this, or maybe replaced the volume pot with something else to help with this problem? Would this change the sound of the Amp?

Thank you for any advice you can give me.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:09 am
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Some modern amps have linear pots as master and/or gain controls. And suffer from sudden loudness about 1/4-1/3 into the volume range. Really volume pots should be logarithmic or audio taper to match the human hearing curve. With audio taper you get a more gradual onset of apparent loudness. Contrary to what you would think.

Someone else prolly knows the specific pot used in your amp. A higher ohm pot (like 1 meg-ohm versus 250K) may give you a more useful control range, too.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:13 pm
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All three volume controls (clean, drive, master) are log (audio) taper pots. Replacing them is a waste of time and money. Replacing the 6L6GC power tubes with 6V6 type tubes will lower the overall power output by about 3 dB. Not that big a change in volume. If all you want is better range on the volume control, replace the 12AX7 in V1 with a lower gain 5751 or 12AY7. The amp will still be loud at max volume but the volume controls will have a smoother sweep to them. Keep in mind that the drive channel will also be affected by the lower gain tube in V1.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:59 pm
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1 on the dial is zero volume, so yes there will be an increase between 1 and 2, it is a 40 watt tube amp. :roll: I believe that we have one more case of some slight exaggeration about a "huge jump in volume" with a miniscule movement of the dial. :wink: I own the first version of this amp, have seen dozens more, along with plenty of BDlx and BDvl, and not one of them has exhibited such behavior.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:54 am
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I have a Limited Edition HRD that is the same way, from one to two is like 1-8 on a stereo receiver. I just recently put on a "Omnisonic" volume control between the preamp out and the power amp in and that did the trick, now i can turn the amp up to 4 or 5 and have the Omni at two or three and it is much more gradual. It's a 20 buck fix.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:16 am
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shimmilou wrote:
1 on the dial is zero volume, so yes there will be an increase between 1 and 2, it is a 40 watt tube amp. :roll: I believe that we have one more case of some slight exaggeration about a "huge jump in volume" with a miniscule movement of the dial. :wink: I own the first version of this amp, have seen dozens more, along with plenty of BDlx and BDvl, and not one of them has exhibited such behavior.


Thanks, your well thought out and positive response was quite helpfull :P

To everyone else that replied with actual advice, I appreciate your input.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:33 am
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Ok, thanks again for all the advice. Especially to Bluesky636!!!

I put a JJ 12AU7 / ECC82 tube in V1 position, and so far I really like it. I have way more control of the volume, and am actually turning it up to about 8-9 for gigging volume now instead of 1.7 - 2, and I can easily make slight volume adjustments by actually turning the knob instead of barley tapping it like I had to before. I can actually go all the way up to 12, which is still pretty damn loud.

Bear in mind that I pretty much only use the clean channel with pedals, so I can't really say what it has done to the overdrive channels, which I never really cared for that much any way. But that sparkly clean Fender tone is sweet.

The tone still is very nice, and maybe even a little sweeter than before. So if anyone else out there was having the same issues as I was, give this easy $14 fix a try. They told me at the shop that if I wasn't happy with the 12AU7, I could also try the 12AY7 as well. The 12AY7 would let more power through, so it wouldn't tone the volume down quite as much as the 12AU7, but I wanted to try the maximum reduction tube first.

Also there is a 5751 tube that is supposed to make the amp sound really good, but only has about a 30% reduction of power to the preamp, so while it may make the tone better, it wouldn't have a lot of effect on the volume knob, but would effect it a little bit.

I may pick up a 12AY7 and try that out as well just to see. I think I would have more max headroom with that tube vs the 12AU7 I have installed at the moment, but not sure that I need more headroom than I have now.


Last edited by Straticus Maximus on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:44 am
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Straticus Maximus wrote:
Ok, thanks again for all the advice. I put a JJ 12AU7 / ECC82 tube in V1 position, and so far I really like it. I have way more control of the volume, and am actually turning it up to about 8-9 for gigging volume now instead of 1.7 - 2, and I can easily make slight volume adjustments by actually turning the knob instead of barley tapping it like I had to before.


I'm just stupefied as to why the factory has not picked up on this easy fix to what is generally conceded to be a design flaw in all of the HR-series amps (complaints regarding this issue here on the forum and elsewhere are legion).

Glad it's working out for you.

8)

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:25 pm
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Straticus Maximus wrote:
Bought a new HRD III, I like the sound of it and everything, but the volume control knob is super sensitive, making it very hard to control the volume, or dial it in just right. I mostly just use the clean channel with pedals, so I am talking about the very first volume knob on the amp, on the left.

I had been looking at used Hot Rots, but I read to where the volume pots were supposed to be improved in the HRD III to be more "linear" and work better, along with some other improvements, so I held out for the new model. But I have been disappointed with the volume control so far. I play in a classic rock band, and we play in various small and medium sized sized venues, some out doors as well.

The amp has plenty of power and good sound, and I seldom have to turn it up past 2. The problem is that the difference in volume from say 1.7 to 1.75 is huge, and that is a teeny,tiny, almost imperceptible movement of the knob. And if you barley touch the volume knob, it can dramatically change how loud you are. I set down a small hand towel on top of the amp when we were playing the other night, and just picking the towel up was enough to move the knob slightly and change my volume level.

I have read that the power tubes can be replaced so the amp puts out 28 watts instead of 40 watts. So I was wondering if that would make the volume control knob less sensitive, since I am assuming that I would be turning it up much higher than 2, maybe up to 4 or 5, to get the same volume level I am using now.

Has any one changed out the tubes like this, or maybe replaced the volume pot with something else to help with this problem? Would this change the sound of the Amp?

Thank you for any advice you can give me.


I have the same amp you have and mine does not even exhibit such behavior with the volume control. As shimmilou said,...it's another case of slight exaggeration with the volume issue,and it's a 40 watt tube amp :roll: . I would make a comment about switching the power tubes from the 6L6s to 6V6s,but I won't,...other than to say leave the tubes alone and leave it at that. To do so would only
get another disagreement concerning modifications and tube swaps started. :|

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If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


Last edited by KC9SYJ on Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:26 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
1 on the dial is zero volume, so yes there will be an increase between 1 and 2, it is a 40 watt tube amp. :roll: I believe that we have one more case of some slight exaggeration about a "huge jump in volume" with a miniscule movement of the dial. :wink: I own the first version of this amp, have seen dozens more, along with plenty of BDlx and BDvl, and not one of them has exhibited such behavior.


+1

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If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:28 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
I would make a comment about switching the power tubes from the 6L6s to 6V6s,but I won't,...other than to say leave the tubes alone and leave it at that. To do so would only get another disagreement concerning modifications and tube swaps started.


Sorry to say this, but you are the only one in this forum that seems to disagree with swapping tubes and modifying amps. You certainly are free to feel that way, but if you are going to advise someone against doing so, at least be honest and explain why. Why being your lack of knowledge and understanding of tube amp design.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:31 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
As shimmilou said,...it's another case of slight exaggeration with the volume issue,and it's a 40 watt tube amp


I once owned one of these miserable little shitboxes and the volume control issue is no exaggeration.

Coupled with its propensity to self-destruct at any inconvenient moment, my experience of ownership was a complete and utter disaster.

The sole shining light in the entire sordid ordeal was the 5-year transferable warranty -- which kept it running long enough for me to unass it on C/L to some unsuspecting cupcake.

:lol:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:02 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
KC9SYJ wrote:
I would make a comment about switching the power tubes from the 6L6s to 6V6s,but I won't,...other than to say leave the tubes alone and leave it at that. To do so would only get another disagreement concerning modifications and tube swaps started.


Sorry to say this, but you are the only one in this forum that seems to disagree with swapping tubes and modifying amps. You certainly are free to feel that way, but if you are going to advise someone against doing so, at least be honest and explain why. Why being your lack of knowledge and understanding of tube amp design.


Whatever,Bill,...whatever,...but I feel I know enough that if the amp isn't broke,...don't fix it. I am a purist and I believe in keeping things 100% factory stock to ensure it's reliability. I am not going to go and void my warranty by doing modifications I do not consider necessary in the first place,...not to mention diminish the value of my amp,...modern or vintage. The ONLY tube swap I would even consider is just changing tube brands,...as long as the tubes I am swapping out are the same type the amp calls for...but I'm sure as hell not going to even try to put a 6V6 where a 6L6 is supposed to be,...or vice versa. Having said all that,I'd rather leave the mods/upgrades to Fender themselves,...I'll wait for a newer upgraded version to come from the factory first before I void a warranty by trying a mod myself. Sorry we disagree,...but I am not going to waver from my stance at any cost. I do enjoy reading your tech related posts,though,...they are interesting.

_________________
If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:24 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
KC9SYJ wrote:
I would make a comment about switching the power tubes from the 6L6s to 6V6s,but I won't,...other than to say leave the tubes alone and leave it at that. To do so would only get another disagreement concerning modifications and tube swaps started.


Sorry to say this, but you are the only one in this forum that seems to disagree with swapping tubes and modifying amps. You certainly are free to feel that way, but if you are going to advise someone against doing so, at least be honest and explain why. Why being your lack of knowledge and understanding of tube amp design.


Whatever,Bill,...whatever,...but I feel I know enough that if the amp isn't broke,...don't fix it. I am a purist and I believe in keeping things 100% factory stock to ensure it's reliability. I am not going to go and void my warranty by doing modifications I do not consider necessary in the first place,...not to mention diminish the value of my amp,...modern or vintage. The ONLY tube swap I would even consider is just changing tube brands,...as long as the tubes I am swapping out are the same type the amp calls for...but I'm sure as hell not going to even try to put a 6V6 where a 6L6 is supposed to be,...or vice versa. Having said all that,I'd rather leave the mods/upgrades to Fender themselves,...I'll wait for a newer upgraded version to come from the factory first before I void a warranty by trying a mod myself. Sorry we disagree,...but I am not going to waver from my stance at any cost. I do enjoy reading your tech related posts,though,...they are interesting.


I'm not going to argue with you as it is pointless. Your signature says it all.

But, when any of us here recommend to do or not do a particular mod or tube change, we take the time to explain why. If you are going to tell someone to never change to a different tube or do even a simple mod, I think it would be reasonable to expect you to also explain why. Otherwise, why should anyone pay any attention to what you say?

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deluxe III - Volume control issues. Re-tube it??
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:27 pm
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Hmmmmmmm, well I am extremely happy with the tube replacement I did. Played 2 gigs this weekend, and had no problems at all.


Last edited by Straticus Maximus on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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