It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:39 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:48 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:23 pm
Posts: 1
Today's gear is mass produced by computer based tools. When the Cyber-twin came out I bought one then two then two more for backups. One has blown up. I have a 1969 Marshall 100 watt Tremolo head. Replaced a output transformer in the 30 years I have owned it. I have many old amps ranging from Mesa Boogie Mark IIB and C+, Triaxis, Triple Recto. The Recto seems "cheaper" but always works. Soundcity 120 owned since 1979, never had a problem. Many Fender amps ranging from a 1954 Princeton to a 1958 Vibrolux to a 1964 Vibroverb on to the Cybertwins that most guitarists don't care for. I have spent hundreds of hours playing live with 2 of them along with Marshall, Mesa and Hughes and Kettner Triamp combo. I bought a Mustang IV and it TOTALLY sucks compared to the Cyber twin. I bought a SE Cybertwin and swapped it for a Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 100 watt combo. The first CT is a better amp in my opinion. I gig every week and have used the Cybertwins live since 2004 with one dieing. Who knows how long my other 4 CTs will last but almost 10 years of serious use is not too bad is it? The Mustang compared to the Cybertwin is JUNK. It feels cheap, doesn't have many of the features of the Ct. Also made in China. Sorry but Chinese made goods are almost always like their boats... JUNK. Back in the early 80s when Fender made gear in Japan some of the guitars were very well constructed. I collect the reissue guitars from then. Not as good as the real deal but still very good guitars. Then came Korean and it went down hill from there. I have a few early MIA(1987) Strat Pluses and they are as good if not better than my 1959 and 63 Strats. I like 22 fret guitars and 24 fret Ibanez RG550s. Some of todays gear is very good but it is hit and miss. Don't get me going on Gibson.....they used to build a great guitar like the 1961 Les Paul SG the reissue is a freakin' joke!


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:56 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
I like the idea that $275 in '67 converts to about $2K today. I have not checked those numbers and honestly I don't think I would know how to check them but they seem almost believable to me. If anything I would have guessed it would work out to closer to $3K today if I had been asked to hazard a guess. The thing I like about this conversion of currency values is that it feeds straight into my fervently held personal belief that people are not spending enough money on their amplifers in relation to their expectations and in relation to their level of esteem of the amps that they DO buy. They buy these cheap $500 amps and think they've spent a small fortune on a piece of high end gear when it's far more likely that what they really bought is a toy. Just imagine if the average Joe had it firmly planted in his mind that a typical 20 watt amp should and would cost between $2K and $3K. Is this not what a quality, point to point amp is worth today? I've said this many times before and I have sometimes been chastised for my attitude in which some accuse me of having no compassion for those on a budget. I will now say it again. $500 is not an amp budget. It is a down payment on an amp. $2K to $3K is an amp budget and even then that doesn't get you the creme de la creme. I say it's time for John Q Public to wake up and smell the coffee.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:48 pm
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 1019
Location: State of Confusion
BMW-KTM wrote:
I like the idea that $275 in '67 converts to about $2K today. I have not checked those numbers and honestly I don't think I would know how to check them but they seem almost believable to me. If anything I would have guessed it would work out to closer to $3K today if I had been asked to hazard a guess. The thing I like about this conversion of currency values is that it feeds straight into my fervently held personal belief that people are not spending enough money on their amplifers in relation to their expectations and in relation to their level of esteem of the amps that they DO buy. They buy these cheap $500 amps and think they've spent a small fortune on a piece of high end gear when it's far more likely that what they really bought is a toy. Just imagine if the average Joe had it firmly planted in his mind that a typical 20 watt amp should and would cost between $2K and $3K. Is this not what a quality, point to point amp is worth today? I've said this many times before and I have sometimes been chastised for my attitude in which some accuse me of having no compassion for those on a budget. I will now say it again. $500 is not an amp budget. It is a down payment on an amp. $2K to $3K is an amp budget and even then that doesn't get you the creme de la creme. I say it's time for John Q Public to wake up and smell the coffee.

Although I buy and use live, amps in the $600 to $1200 range, your point of $2k-$3k is a very good one and I must agree.

However, don't hold your breath for "John Q Public to wake up and smell the coffee" in the world of disposable everything. It's just not likely to happen. Just as very few wait until they have the money to buy something...it's get it now if the monthly payment is doable. Life has changed dramatically from the 60's and 70's!

_________________
The quintessential sound of 60/70's R&R:
Fender Tube Amps
Gibson Guitars


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:43 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
IM4Tone wrote:
However, don't hold your breath for "John Q Public to wake up and smell the coffee" in the world of disposable everything. It's just not likely to happen. Just as very few wait until they have the money to buy something...it's get it now if the monthly payment is doable. Life has changed dramatically from the 60's and 70's!


+1

It's ignorant chowderheads like that who enable the 600-lb gorillas of the musical-instrument business to continue cranking out loser after loser after loser. Hell, most of those cupcakes think nothing of spending $500 on a goddamm phone that will be *obsolete* before their one-year service contract is up yet snivel and whine about the high cost and poor serviceability of their new chicom-made wünderamp.

Fuggem!

:evil:

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:57 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
Retroverbial wrote:
It's ignorant chowderheads like that who enable the 600-lb gorillas of the musical-instrument business to continue cranking out loser after loser after loser. Hell, most of those cupcakes think nothing of spending $500 on a goddamm phone that will be *obsolete* before their one-year service contract is up yet snivel and whine about the high cost and poor serviceability of their new chicom-made wünderamp.

Fuggem!

:evil:

Arjay

You said a mouthful.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:10 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 2:49 am
Posts: 560
Location: Perth, Australia
I must say one thing I do like about the Mass Production Industry of today, is that it allows people like me who live far away in another country to be able to buy an American/British/German product. Even though the product is not up to par with the standard of yesteryear (early days), at least I am able to purchase one, which is better than not having at all.

_________________
GUITAR: Fender USA JazzMaster.
BASS: Fender USA 58'AVRI
AMP: Fender USA SuperSonicTwin - Blonde.
Image


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:47 am
Offline
Roadie
Roadie

Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:16 pm
Posts: 209
AaronK wrote:
I must say one thing I do like about the Mass Production Industry of today, is that it allows people like me who live far away in another country to be able to buy an American/British/German product. Even though the product is not up to par with the standard of yesteryear (early days), at least I am able to purchase one, which is better than not having at all.

Ah, a little much-needed perspective towards a subject bound to generate strong feelings all around.

First, Beemer, your $279 1967 dollars would be somewhere around $1,923.32 today, according to the http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ , a very useful site when it comes to comparing the relative expense of things, so your point about the $500 amp of today is all too true--it's almost a toy compared to what that money bought you forty years ago. And, yes, the "chowderheads" who spend that amount on an amplifier today really are mistaken when they think they have plunked down a premium amount for a premium product! In a different thread I noted that the Mesa Boogie Mark II I waited seven months to get after I paid to have it built in 1978 would cost almost $4500 in today's dollars, but the current price for a flagship Mark V is "only" about $2500, so the thing has actually come down in price while the quality has stayed (by most accounts) pretty high.

OTOH, AaronK is absolutely right when he says two things: while the ratio of good quality amps to junk was probably much greater when quality manufacturing was the rule, we don't have any way of knowing how many failed units were produced back in the day since they didn't survive to be maintained and/or reconditioned; and that economies of scale do make it possible for a greater number of people to avail themselves of a functioning product, even if it isn't exactly a Rolls-Royce. Heck, I hear people say all the time how the Mercedes-Benzes of today are pure junk compared to those of the past, even though they all cost a pretty penny! Well, the Benz people made a decision to cut some corners (and risk the negative effect on their brand reputation) in order to sell more cars to more people and hopefully increase or maintain their profits, which, after all, is why any business is in business in the first place...

Sure, Fender or any other manufacturer could still build products that are sturdy as a tank, but the cost of doing so would raise the price so high that they might sell only 1,000 each year, which would not bring in enough profit to justify the effort. Look at what Apple has done only this week: in addition to upgrading their flagship iPhone 5 to the 5s, they also introduced a less-expensive 5c model with a plastic case in an obvious attempt to broaden their customer base (I heard some wag on the radio this morning say that the "c" stood for "cheap" :lol: ). Does anybody seriously think that the 5c is going to be a better, more durable product than the 5s?? I doubt it, but they will probably sell a bunch, while taking the risk that the 5c might turn out to be the next Ford Edsel, or "New Coke".

I remember seeing a report on, I believe, 60 Minutes many, many years ago about a light bulb that hung from one of those old-fashioned single wires, in a firehouse somewhere in Vermont or New Hampshire (I always confuse the two): it had been burning nonstop since it had been turned on back in the 1920's I think it was! Now, it was certainly possible way back then to manufacture a light bulb that could last for decades, but think what General Electric would have to charge for such an item if they wanted to make any money (on light bulbs, that is) or have repeat sales! All I'm saying is that some common things had better be designed to be disposable or replaceable, or relatively few people would be able to afford them.

Finally, two old sayings are still true:
Usually, "You get what you pay for", and "Let the buyer beware"!

_________________
Most profound blues lyric, from Robert Johnson's Hell Hound On My Trail:

"If today was Christmas Eve, if today was Christmas Eve,
Tomorrow would be Christmas Day..."


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:43 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:46 am
Posts: 1019
Location: State of Confusion
AaronK and rudorama...both very good perspectives on the topic IMO.
There's no returning to the old way, so those who continue to obsess about it only bring frustration to themselves and cause others to turn a deaf ear. Besides, if one wants an amp that is hand-wired with higher quality components and great tone, he/she can get a new one (or even a vintage one) today from multiple sources at 60's inflated prices. Or he/she can get a bargain basement amp that ends up disposable. So what's wrong with having such a variety of choices? Seems to me that in that regard, it's better than it used to be in the 60's/70's!

_________________
The quintessential sound of 60/70's R&R:
Fender Tube Amps
Gibson Guitars


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:16 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
There may very well be no returning to the days of quality for the masses but those of us who desire quality can still get it by a couple of different means. There are amp manufacturers around today who build high quality amps; some of which are even higher quality than the Fenders of old. Some are true to Leo's designs, some are slightly different versions and some are completely new designs. Then there is also the option of building your own amp which many here have chosen to do, myself included. For the time being, there is still hope. I look at current trends in our society and it is easy for me to envision a future where junk is the only option available to us. The problem is ... junk sells, strange as it seems. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to imagine a day when many of us will be standing in the streets selling colourful plastic doo-dads to people in vehicles stuck in traffic like you see at the Tijuana-SanDiego border. Before that happens, though, I plan to experience some nice amps.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:48 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:03 am
Posts: 784
Location: Switzerland, Europe
BMW-KTM wrote:
There are amp manufacturers around today who build high quality amps; some of which are even higher quality than the Fenders of old. Some are true to Leo's designs, some are slightly different versions and some are completely new designs.


Would it be against the rules of this forum to post a list of manufacturers? I know Victoria for example.

Best regards

David

_________________
"Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars etc...and all that dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play around. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons."


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:25 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 6544
Amerigo wrote:

Would it be against the rules of this forum to post a list of manufacturers? I know Victoria for example.
Best regards

David


Prolly no problem. As long as you aren't a dealer for any of these amps.

:D


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:46 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
BMW-KTM wrote:
The problem is ... junk sells, strange as it seems.


I'll say!

The Ford Motor Company sold over three million Pintos before American drivers decided they didn't want to be the unintentional guest-of-honor at a blacktop barbecue and refused to buy more.

:lol:

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:07 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:20 pm
Posts: 9640
Location: Indiana
:lol:

_________________
---> "The amp should be SWITCHED OFF AND UNPLUGGED before you do this!" <---

Por favor, disculpe mi español, no se llega a la práctica con mucha frecuencia.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:14 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 7998
Location: ʎɹʇunoɔ ǝsoɹ pןıʍ
Ford has a better idea.
Remember that slogan?
I got plenty of chuckles out of that slogan back in those 70s BBQ Pinto days.
And let's not forget the Exploder. Oops! I mean the Explorer.
Actually I had an Exploder and as much as I dislike Ford products I have to admit it was a middle-of-the-road vehicle. No pun intended. I'd like to be able to report it was the absolute worst vehicle I've ever owned but sadly, it wasn't. That honour goes to the 2001 Dakota I had briefly. It spent more time in the shop than it did on the road and I mean that literally. They never did figure out what the hell was wrong with it and after 16 months they volunteered to refund my money and take it back. It took me all of 0.47 nanoseconds to jump on that offer before they changed their minds.

_________________
Image
Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: "They Don't Make Things Like they Used To" ???
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:29 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:09 pm
Posts: 11
Seems to me that the Fender line of vintage amps are high-maintenance. I had a DRRI with problems right out of the box, and you are right, the forum is rife with similiar or worse issues.

But the problem is - for a long time - that you can't get the same sound from a more reliable amp without spending huge coin.

Traynor is making a dent in Canada, cause they are producing (IN Canada) a high quality set of Amps that are reasonably priced. Always seems good value - the YGL1 in particular comes to mind as a Pro Junior better alternative (at least to my ears - way better).

Fender is kind of like BMW... nobody else has quite that same style and handling with the same luxury mixed with stiff transmissions - and is also totally unreliable as far as electronics go.

Fender == BMW. Both hugely successful, and neither can be replaced. But lots of other options are always looking better ;)

IMHO there is NO excuse for poor quality control - not with the $ they are charging for their amps. To make a difference they just need to cut their margin slightly to improve quality control in China (or if they are in Mexico then forget it, it will never improve) cause the Chinese corporations respond really really well to margin incentives and punishments.

Not everything in China sucks - but if you are getting the cheapest thing in China it sure will...


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: