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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:44 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
But, if you look at some guitar amp manufacturers, like Ampeg, you'll find a lot of hi-fi world electronics.


As well as Sunn......much of their output-stage architecture was light-fingered from Dynaco.

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:10 am
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The only difference I see between guitar amps and hi-fi amps is that guitar amps are music producers and hi-fi amps are music reproducers. In other words, the sound of guitar amps ranges from very clean to very dirty to produce the tones we want. A hi-fi amp must be very clean to reproduce the tones that the guitar amp makes.

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:50 am
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KC9SYJ wrote:
1969spacecowboy wrote:
You guys still obsessing on preamp tubes pushing out put tubes harder? You misunderstood my statement. We also need to separate guitar tube amps from all the other tube technology! Why? Because what sounds like $@!& to high end audio geeks is euphoria to guitar players and vise versa! I've done way to many experiments with pre and power tubes to understand what one tube will do vs. another.

How about putting a JJ ECC803s Gold Pin as a Phase Inverter replacement! Thats right! The over size plate gives the additional drive needed to really push the power tubes to their fullest potential. This is pure electrical adrenaline. :shock:

Have we talked tube rectifier vs. silicon diode yet?


1969spacecowboy,...I can't speak for the others,...but I am not obsessing about anything except only to tell you the God honest truth that your claims of lower gain preamp tubes pushing power tubes harder than higher gain preamp tubes are bogus,...it is not ever going to happen and it will NEVER happen,...furthermore,it's impossible. A 12AT7 or 12AU7 is going to have lower gain than a 12AX7,so how in the hell will the 12AT7 or 12AU7 push output tubes harder than a 12AX7. I suggest you do more research! :!:


I agree 100%! I'm the one who fired off the gain factor discussion. I'll state it again! A 12AX7 with a gain factor of say 100% give or take will perform differently than 5751 with a gain factor of say 70% give or take. The 5751 will be quieter and run cleaner than a 12AX7! If you were to run a 5751 while TURNING THE POWER SECTION UP, will give you POWER TUBE COMPRESSION & GRIND! :idea: The power amp section is a whole other topic of discussion along with tube vs. silicon diode rectification. The idea of pushing the power tubes harder came from using weaker pre tubes. That is, you turn the power section up to get the power tubes cooking. You have guitar players that rely on pre amp break up at lower volumes, which to me sounds like $@!&! I'm a power tube, tube rectifier player. Keep the pre pretty clean and let the power tubes scream mean.

Audiophile builders have a different way of thinking than guitar amp builders. Guitar Amp builders favor less expensive components than high-end audiophile builders! It's all the little warts and quirks, some of the lesser components, when married together correctly give a better output.


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:27 am
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" How about putting a JJ ECC803s Gold Pin as a Phase Inverter replacement. "

This will work ok with Fender amps that use 12AX7/7025 in the PI position. My experience with amps that use a 12AT7 type in a PI, is the extra load these amps place on the 12AT7 sometimes leads to early noise or failure in the 12AX7.

Check the cathode voltage difference (as thus idle wattage) of the tweed Bassman, which uses the 12AX7/7025 long-tailed PI versus the BF Bassman which uses a 12AT7.


http://www.webphix.com/schematic%20heav ... _schem.pdf


http://www.webphix.com/schematic%20heav ... _schem.pdf


" Guitar Amp builders favor less expensive components. "

Hmm.. have you seen the guts of, say, a vintage Harmon Kardon Citation 2 or a McIntosh Mc75? You know what you find? C-D caps. AB resistors. Mallory or Sprague coupling caps. Now, if you look under the hood of a Matchless or Trainwreck you know what you find? Mills resistors. Special made Jupiter coupling caps. Hand wound trannies. So this statement is not neccesarily true.

Just my 2¢ worth. :D


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:50 am
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
" How about putting a JJ ECC803s Gold Pin as a Phase Inverter replacement. "

This will work ok with Fender amps that use 12AX7/7025 in the PI position. My experience with amps that use a 12AT7 type in a PI, is the extra load these amps place on the 12AT7 sometimes leads to early noise or failure in the 12AX7.

Check the cathode voltage difference (as thus idle wattage) of the tweed Bassman, which uses the 12AX7/7025 long-tailed PI versus the BF Bassman which uses a 12AT7.


http://www.webphix.com/schematic%20heav ... _schem.pdf


http://www.webphix.com/schematic%20heav ... _schem.pdf


" Guitar Amp builders favor less expensive components. "

Hmm.. have you seen the guts of, say, a vintage Harmon Kardon Citation 2 or a McIntosh Mc75? You know what you find? C-D caps. AB resistors. Mallory or Sprague coupling caps. Now, if you look under the hood of a Matchless or Trainwreck you know what you find? Mills resistors. Special made Jupiter coupling caps. Hand wound trannies. So this statement is not neccesarily true.

Just my 2¢ worth. :D


You're correct on that. I forgot to add if your amp can take it. My Maz18 reverb Loves being hot rodded! It doesn't like 5y3's though. Its like you want your buddy to meet a new friend that's pretty cool, but after a couple of days of interacting your buddy beats up your other friend. My Maz has a strong personality. There for 5ar4's get along.


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:24 pm
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Don't fall for the gold pin gimmick, waste of money!

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:36 pm
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Hey! Amp bling-bling.


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:56 am
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It is usually not just gold pins, but special or specially selected tubes, denoted by having gold pins. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:40 am
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shimmilou wrote:
It is usually not just gold pins, but special or specially selected tubes, denoted by having gold pins. :wink:


The "gold pin" ECC83s (12AX7) from JJ have a different plate design from the regular tubes. They sound different (better), smoother and thicker in my Wrecking Ball then the regular JJs.

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:49 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
It is usually not just gold pins, but special or specially selected tubes, denoted by having gold pins. :wink:


The "gold pin" ECC83s (12AX7) from JJ have a different plate design from the regular tubes. They sound different (better), smoother and thicker in my Wrecking Ball then the regular JJs.

The plate design is what makes the difference. I wonder what would happen if the plates were gold plated? Somewhere I had a Tung-Sol RI with gold plated pins and I didn't like it as well as a standard one.

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:43 pm
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It's more important that the surface of the anode plates dissipation heat, than conduct electricity. This one of the few advantages of gold over other conductors-- along with less likely to oxidize. But, since the plates are in a vacuum, oxidation isn't an issue.

That is one of the big advantages of black plates over gray plates. Black dissipates heat better. Critical in transmitter tubes.

Most anode plates are copper alloys (good) or solid copper (better). With a layer of heat dissipating alloys fused to the surface. Really good output tubes actually use an explosive technique, pioneered by Texas Instrument, to layer the alloy to the copper. Like those made by GE in their Owensboro, KY plant. I believe Ken-Rad started that process, for the military, before being bought out by GE.


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:38 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
It's more important that the surface of the anode plates dissipation heat, than conduct electricity. This one of the few advantages of gold over other conductors-- along with less likely to oxidize. But, since the plates are in a vacuum, oxidation isn't an issue.

That is one of the big advantages of black plates over gray plates. Black dissipates heat better. Critical in transmitter tubes.

Most anode plates are copper alloys (good) or solid copper (better). With a layer of heat dissipating alloys fused to the surface. Really good output tubes actually use an explosive technique, pioneered by Texas Instrument, to layer the alloy to the copper. Like those made by GE in their Owensboro, KY plant. I believe Ken-Rad started that process, for the military, before being bought out by GE.
It is a 5-Ply process. I wonder if new production is like that?

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:51 pm
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Cap47 wrote:
It is a 5-Ply process. I wonder if new production is like that?


Few companies are that diligent anymore.

:(

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:06 pm
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On the subject of tubes,...who is the best outfit to get tubes from other than the music store where you bought your amps,guys? I see Tube Depot,Amplified Parts,RF Parts,etc.
RF Parts may be more for ham radio tubes and high power broadcast radio transmitter tubes,but I would think you can get amp tubes from them as well! :?:

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:13 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
On the subject of tubes,...who is the best outfit to get tubes from other than the music store where you bought your amps,guys? I see Tube Depot,Amplified Parts,RF Parts,etc.
RF Parts may be more for ham radio tubes and high power broadcast radio transmitter tubes,but I would think you can get amp tubes from them as well! :?:


My sources:

http://www.eurotubes.com/

http://www.tubedepot.com

http://thetubestore.com/

https://www.kcanostubes.com/

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