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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:20 pm
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12AX7's are dual triodes,' essentially carrying two little tubes in one glass casing. Their target gain is 100, although many will fall below that, and a few will rise above it. 5751 has a lower gain factor, similar to a 12AY7 which has a gain factor of around 44. (give or take) The pre amp tube has nothing to do with pushing the out put tubes harder! I did not state this! Again, if you run the volume of an amp at say 5 with an 12AX7 with master set at 1 o-oclock you get (?) If you run an 5751 at 5 and master at 1 o-clock you get(?) The sound of the amp will sound cleaner and have less volume with the 5751 there for turning the volume to say 9 with master set the same will give you (?) It's not rocket science!


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:21 pm
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Bill,...now that I think about it since you pretty much pointed it out about the "early days"
where tubes were made better and to much tighter tolerances and you didn't have to worry about your power tubes being matched and bias adjustment since older amps did not have such an adjustment,...that could very well have been what my two radio buddies might have been referring to. But what they may not realize is that on the newer modern amps,output tubes need to be a matched pair and bias set. Again,my knowledge comes from what I have seen on youtube videos and what I have read so far in the books I have.
Still a LOT more to learn on the tube circuit subject,though! :!:

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:42 pm
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1969spacecowboy wrote:
12AX7's are dual triodes,' essentially carrying two little tubes in one glass casing. Their target gain is 100, although many will fall below that, and a few will rise above it. 5751 has a lower gain factor, similar to a 12AY7 which has a gain factor of around 44. (give or take) The pre amp tube has nothing to do with pushing the out put tubes harder! I did not state this! Again, if you run the volume of an amp at say 5 with an 12AX7 with master set at 1 o-oclock you get (?) If you run an 5751 at 5 and master at 1 o-clock you get(?) The sound of the amp will sound cleaner and have less volume with the 5751 there for turning the volume to say 9 with master set the same will give you (?) It's not rocket science!


Now wait a minute,...did you not say in your OP that lower gain preamp tubes would make the power tubes work harder? I believe you did! I'll go back and re-read it,but I am dang near positive that is what you said. I'm gonna have to do more research on this subject.
I'll probably be away from the site a day or two while doing that. I'll check out the RCA tube manual while I am at it!

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If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:31 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
KC9SYJ wrote:
...Only book I don't have and need is an RCA Receiving Tube Manual! :)...


For PDF versions of just about any tube manuals, RCA and many others, go here:

http://www.tubebooks.org/tube_data.htm


The one I posted earlier came from here:

http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/tube/man/index.html


Thanks for the link. I had a link to that site, but for some reason it wouldn't work, so I used your link, adding it to my bookmarks. :)

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:42 pm
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1969spacecowboy wrote:
...I sure do know that if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord And Savior your screwed!...


Correct. :) Good that we can agree on something.

You're also correct that it isn't rocket science, but it is electronic science, and it follows hard and fast laws, so no matter how you want to shake it up, you're completely mistaken about the lower gain preamp tubes pushing the output tubes harder than the higher gain preamp tubes push the output tubes.. :wink:

Grammer:
The difference between knowing your $h!t, and knowing you're $h!t. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:59 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
1969spacecowboy wrote:
...I sure do know that if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord And Savior your screwed!...


Correct. :) Good that we can agree on something.

You're also correct that it isn't rocket science, but it is electronic science, and it follows hard and fast laws, so no matter how you want to shake it up, you're completely mistaken about the lower gain preamp tubes pushing the output tubes harder than the higher gain preamp tubes push the output tubes.. :wink:

Grammer:
The difference between knowing your $h!t, and knowing you're $h!t. :lol:


I agree with you,...there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD that lower gain preamp tubes can push output tubes harder than higher gain preamp tubes as you tried to drill this fact into 1969spacecowboy's head. He is terribly mistaken! Electronic science,...not rocket science,...if I can reiterate the fact. :)

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If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:47 pm
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You guys still obsessing on preamp tubes pushing out put tubes harder? You misunderstood my statement. We also need to separate guitar tube amps from all the other tube technology! Why? Because what sounds like $@!& to high end audio geeks is euphoria to guitar players and vise versa! I've done way to many experiments with pre and power tubes to understand what one tube will do vs. another.

How about putting a JJ ECC803s Gold Pin as a Phase Inverter replacement! Thats right! The over size plate gives the additional drive needed to really push the power tubes to their fullest potential. This is pure electrical adrenaline. :shock:

Have we talked tube rectifier vs. silicon diode yet?


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:58 pm
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A long-Plate tube for a PI is a well known favorite of some forum members here, such as the Sovtek LPS. Given more time, you'll eventually catch up with the rest of us.

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:09 pm
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1969spacecowboy wrote:
You guys still obsessing on preamp tubes pushing out put tubes harder? You misunderstood my statement. We also need to separate guitar tube amps from all the other tube technology! Why? Because what sounds like $@!& to high end audio geeks is euphoria to guitar players and vise versa! I've done way to many experiments with pre and power tubes to understand what one tube will do vs. another.

How about putting a JJ ECC803s Gold Pin as a Phase Inverter replacement! Thats right! The over size plate gives the additional drive needed to really push the power tubes to their fullest potential. This is pure electrical adrenaline. :shock:

Have we talked tube rectifier vs. silicon diode yet?


1969spacecowboy,...I can't speak for the others,...but I am not obsessing about anything except only to tell you the God honest truth that your claims of lower gain preamp tubes pushing power tubes harder than higher gain preamp tubes are bogus,...it is not ever going to happen and it will NEVER happen,...furthermore,it's impossible. A 12AT7 or 12AU7 is going to have lower gain than a 12AX7,so how in the hell will the 12AT7 or 12AU7 push output tubes harder than a 12AX7. I suggest you do more research! :!:

_________________
If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:13 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
1969spacecowboy wrote:
You guys still obsessing on preamp tubes pushing out put tubes harder? You misunderstood my statement. We also need to separate guitar tube amps from all the other tube technology! Why? Because what sounds like $@!& to high end audio geeks is euphoria to guitar players and vise versa! I've done way to many experiments with pre and power tubes to understand what one tube will do vs. another.

How about putting a JJ ECC803s Gold Pin as a Phase Inverter replacement! Thats right! The over size plate gives the additional drive needed to really push the power tubes to their fullest potential. This is pure electrical adrenaline. :shock:

Have we talked tube rectifier vs. silicon diode yet?


1969spacecowboy,...I can't speak for the others,...but I am not obsessing about anything except only to tell you the God honest truth that your claims of lower gain preamp tubes pushing power tubes harder than higher gain preamp tubes are bogus,...it is not ever going to happen and it will NEVER happen,...furthermore,it's impossible. A 12AT7 or 12AU7 is going to have lower gain than a 12AX7,so how in the hell will the 12AT7 or 12AU7 push output tubes harder than a 12AX7. I suggest you do more research! :!:


Easy there, "sparks"......he's on a roll.

:wink:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:52 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Easy there, "sparks"......he's on a roll.

:wink:

Arjay


This is almost as good as when toppspot was around. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:16 pm
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Yeah, snottscore was a hoot!

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:48 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Yeah, snottscore was a hoot!

:mrgreen:

Arjay


I remember his argument that Fender never built an amp with both a bright switch and a presence control. Even after I provided a list of Fender amps with just that configuration he still argued that Fender never made an amp like that. Some people can be hit with a brick in the head and still not have a clue about what is going on around them. :roll: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:03 pm
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Weisenheimers are your best entertainment value.

:lol:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:10 am
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" We also need to separate guitar tube amps from all the other tube technology! Why? "

Hmm... you know the RCA Receiver Manuals that Leo based most of his basic circuits did not distinguish between guitar amp gain stages and hi-fi gain stages.

Really, general topology and strategy for gain stages and phase inverters are pretty much the same between the two worlds. Ok.... the feedback constraints & specific range of the tube's function maybe different --- to maintain more strict linear output in the hi-fi world. But, if you look at some guitar amp manufacturers, like Ampeg, you'll find a lot of hi-fi world electronics.

I know this is beating a dead horse. And prolly the original poster has gone on to greener pastures a LONG time ago... But, too simple statements sometimes are misleading.

:|


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